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Post Info TOPIC: Improving Water Solubility Of Bleach Powder


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Date: Apr 18, 2011
Improving Water Solubility Of Bleach Powder
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This is a post I made on another forum about improving the water solubility of bleach powder (Calcium Hypochlorite).  It turns out Lime is not very water soluble, so we can try baking soda. The whole idea is that Bleach Powder is more soluble in SOFT Water.

The QUESTION is what will calcium hypochlorite DO when it dries, and comes out of solution ? Will it still leave a film, or can this film be simply acid washed away ?

The post is below:

Water Softening may help Jeff ? Calcium Hypo is way more soluble in SOFT Water. There are a number of ways to accomplish water softening, as you know. LIME is one of them, and I think the lime MAY also counteract the film! It is also important, as you know Jeff, to allow the calcium hypochlorite TIME to release it's Chlorine in the water. I can never see this product as being a mix and go roof clean right away product. I see it as a soften your water first by the addition of some Lime, check the PH, then add the calcium hypo. Stir real good, let sit a few minutes, and stir again. I think if you allow 1/2 to 1 hour, the chlorine will have time to release itself.
As for the film, it MAY go away once the water solubility problem is solved, or it may not ? It will surely be greatly reduced.
The amount of the Lime added to the mix water will need to be determined experimentally. I THINK we may need an excess of Lime, over and above what it takes to merely soften the water Jeff. This is because when we hit the water will all that calcium hypo, it may want to return to it's previous hardness ? The Film we are seeing could merely be the undissolved Calcium Hypochlorite passing through the pump. Remember, garbage in, garbage out ? Improving the water solubility will not hurt, but we must see what effect the Lime will have on the equillibrium reaction Jeff. It is NOT the Chlorine that does the cleaning, it is the release of the Hypochlorite ION that only occurs in water. Perhaps Lime will enhance that reaction, we don't know until we try it. In THEORY Jeff, Lime WILL increase the potency of the bleach powder in 2 ways.
#1 - by increasing water solubility
#2 - By raising the PH - The conditions for the formation of the Hypochlorite Ion that does the actual cleaning are much more favorable at HIGH PH's.

The "riddle" of the bleach powder may have just been solved by simple water softening, LOL
I sure hope so Jeff. Our friends at Deluxe must have a LOT of this product we don't want them to EAT. And besides, Calcium Hypochlorite does not 'taste good'.
I am not sure of the water solubility of Lime, but in theory, anything that raises PH will soften water, so if Lime is not water soluble enough, a more water soluble, inexpensive water softener should work.



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Interesting. I can see where you are going with this. Differently could use some experimenting.



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Central Iowa Roof Cleaning 515-971-1430 wrote:

Interesting. I can see where you are going with this. Differently could use some experimenting.


 The real question we must ask is this - Even if we can get it to dissolve in water better by using softened water, what happens when it dries ?  Will it still leave a film, and/or will this film be possible to easily remove with an acid/water rinse ?

 

 



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I just found this

Calcium hypochlorite is available as white powder or tablets, therefore it should first be dissolved in water, and only then it is injected into the treated water. Calcium hypochlorite isn't highly soluble, so it dissolves better in soft or medium-hard water. It is recommended to dissolve it in warm water, in order to improve its solubility.

 

In any case, all forms of calcium hypochlorite contain insoluble residues that form sediments in the solution. It is important to eliminate the sediment before injecting the calcium hypochlorite solution into the treated water tank to avoid clogging.

 

Advantages - Easy transport and storage, more stable than sodium hypochlorite, does not add sodium to the water,highly effective when correctly used.

 

Disadvantages - low solubility, might cause clogging, the final chlorine concentration in water is dependent on the extent of dissolution achieved.



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Pat


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Date: Apr 18, 2011
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Chris.

What about a procedure to "treat" the CH before actually applying it to the roof?

Premix it in a newly designed tank with filtering system that contains a cleanable cartridge that takes the film forming solids out. If not a cleanable cartridge, then one that is affordable and easily replaced.

I wonder how many microns the solution would have to be filtered down to? Would it fill (clog) the filter to fast?

I just love the idea of a powdered solution to all of this. But can't help think, having seen some of the amazing products that have and are coming out these days that if it's really feasible we would in all likelihood have seen one of the big CHEM manufacturers producing something along these lines.

On the other hand people thought the earth was flat for a long long time. And the first to say otherwise was ridiculed. In addition, there is a well recorded history of guys revolutionizing products and services out of their back garages and changing the world.

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Pat wrote:

Chris.

What about a procedure to "treat" the CH before actually applying it to the roof?

Premix it in a newly designed tank with filtering system that contains a cleanable cartridge that takes the film forming solids out. If not a cleanable cartridge, then one that is affordable and easily replaced.

I wonder how many microns the solution would have to be filtered down to? Would it fill (clog) the filter to fast?

I just love the idea of a powdered solution to all of this. But can't help think, having seen some of the amazing products that have and are coming out these days that if it's really feasible we would in all likelihood have seen one of the big CHEM manufacturers producing something along these lines.

On the other hand people thought the earth was flat for a long long time. And the first to say otherwise was ridiculed. In addition, there is a well recorded history of guys revolutionizing products and services out of their back garages and changing the world.


 What about a tank with a gravity fed filter screen, kind of like Gold Mining, catch the big particles, and allow the filtered CH to run below it ? OR, maybe say screw the particles, and simply take care of them with an acid/water final rinse ?

The warm water and baking soda softened water might reduce this film, we will have to see ?

 



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Yea Chris,..maybe the soft water would at least help with the solubility. No,..I didn't know about letting it sit long enough to make sure the chlorine was all released,..I used to mix it,..strain it,..and spray away,...from a pump sprayer,.. then a gas powered 1" centrifigal pump, Ha,Ha,.. and then a roller pump.

Interesting info Chris!!

Jeff

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Chris that sound good but did you look at the cost soft water system and having to keep going back to the shop to fill up your tank every time you run out.

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Raystown Roof Cleaning Central PA 1-800-236-0322 wrote:

Yea Chris,..maybe the soft water would at least help with the solubility. No,..I didn't know about letting it sit long enough to make sure the chlorine was all released,..I used to mix it,..strain it,..and spray away,...from a pump sprayer,.. then a gas powered 1" centrifigal pump, Ha,Ha,.. and then a roller pump.

Interesting info Chris!!

Jeff


 Seriously, I saw that in one of my searches! Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) will soften the water that we want WARM, then we mix in the Cal Hypo, stir real good, and let sit for half to 1 hour, then go clean. The Baking Soda is very alkaline, and theoretically may help the stuff clean even better by enhancing formation of the Hypochlorite ION that does the cleaning. I am dying to try it, but both my trucks are soo busy, no time.  Hey, maybe even put a strainer on the tanks bulkhead, or a slight acid/water rinse afterwards.

 



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Chris I know Baking Soda will soften water little but you also have to take in account every area water is at different types of hard water. If you go to large car lots they have DI or RO water softer to get spot free cleaning. Chris I recomend that you get meter to test how hard your water is they try Baking Soda to see how soft you can get your water.

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chrisf72 wrote:

Chris I know Baking Soda will soften water little but you also have to take in account every area water is at different types of hard water. If you go to large car lots they have DI or RO water softer to get spot free cleaning. Chris I recomend that you get meter to test how hard your water is they try Baking Soda to see how soft you can get your water.


 

 Great Idea Chris !!! I have zero experience with water softening, we will have to experiment, see how soft we can make the water, and how much baking soda we will need.



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@Pat---For roof cleaning we need alot of CH,..I do believe it would clog a filter very fast. But,..possibly straining it and then seeing if we can find a filter system to remove calcium that is in the liquid. Thats good thinking Pat!! One of those yarn type,.whole house filters may work,..I know it takes alot of brown "stuff" out of the water at my house,..which I assume is iron ,...I wonder if they would remove calcium in the same manor?? The yarn would never hold up to the hypo,..but,..first things first...


@Chris Francis---Chris We are just rying to get CH to WORK,..at this point cost isn't a factor,..one thing at a time,..if we can get it to even be feasible,..we can then set our goal at making it less cost prohibitive.


@Chris T---Yea Chris,..I have been using sodium bicarbonate with regular SH now since last Summer,..I do believe it boosts the hypochlorite as you stated,..Man,.I can't believe I never even considered the idea of it possibly making CH work better,..glad you posted that information.



Jeff

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Been digging a little,..I found something called "Zeolite" is used in water softening systems. It is a mineral that absorbs calcium,..it is also used as a replacement in sand filters for pools to remove impurites,...and they can somehow be regenerated by flushing them with salt. Sounds almost like it could be done if you have the time to run it through a system at home,.and then use it.

Around $50.00 for 50LB.

Problem we have is,..we are putting a stink load of calcium through in a small amount of time,..may be hard to filter this kind of flow of calcium.

Jeff

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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

I just found this

Calcium hypochlorite is available as white powder or tablets, therefore it should first be dissolved in water, and only then it is injected into the treated water. Calcium hypochlorite isn't highly soluble, so it dissolves better in soft or medium-hard water. It is recommended to dissolve it in warm water, in order to improve its solubility.

 

In any case, all forms of calcium hypochlorite contain insoluble residues that form sediments in the solution. It is important to eliminate the sediment before injecting the calcium hypochlorite solution into the treated water tank to avoid clogging.

 

Advantages - Easy transport and storage, more stable than sodium hypochlorite, does not add sodium to the water,highly effective when correctly used.

 

Disadvantages - low solubility, might cause clogging, the final chlorine concentration in water is dependent on the extent of dissolution achieved.


 There are safety issues with Calcium Hypochlorite:

http://articles.courant.com/2001-08-01/news/0108011119_1_chemical-fire-officials-explosion-and-fire

 NEWS

By DAVID OWENS; Courant Staff WriterAugust 1, 2001
Days of bright sunshine have weakened the chemical fallout from Thursday's explosion and fire at NAMCO Pool & Patio, rendering the chemical compound less hazardous, officials said Tuesday. The heat of the fire and sunshine have removed chlorine atoms from the chemical compound that initially coated cars and homes, converting it to calcium hydroxide from calcium hypochlorite, Manchester fire officials said. They based their statements on chemical analysis performed by Environmental Services Inc., the contractor cleaning up the NAMCO site, and TRC, an environmental testing company hired by Environmental Services.


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Raystown Roof Cleaning Central PA 1-800-236-0322 wrote:

@Pat---For roof cleaning we need alot of CH,..I do believe it would clog a filter very fast. But,..possibly straining it and then seeing if we can find a filter system to remove calcium that is in the liquid. Thats good thinking Pat!! One of those yarn type,.whole house filters may work,..I know it takes alot of brown "stuff" out of the water at my house,..which I assume is iron ,...I wonder if they would remove calcium in the same manor?? The yarn would never hold up to the hypo,..but,..first things first...


@Chris Francis---Chris We are just rying to get CH to WORK,..at this point cost isn't a factor,..one thing at a time,..if we can get it to even be feasible,..we can then set our goal at making it less cost prohibitive.


@Chris T---Yea Chris,..I have been using sodium bicarbonate with regular SH now since last Summer,..I do believe it boosts the hypochlorite as you stated,..Man,.I can't believe I never even considered the idea of it possibly making CH work better,..glad you posted that information.



Jeff


 I still can't find where it said to give the cal hypo time to release all it's chlorine in water. Yes, Baking Soda boosts Sodium Hypochlorite, and it will boost the Cal Hypo 2 ways.

#1 - by making the water softer

#2- By jacking the PH up

As you know, it is the hypochlorite ION that does the cleaning for us, and the reaction for this is better at high PH's.  So, in  theory, anthing we add to raise the PH of our solution will boost the CH or SH we are using. I once tried sodium metasilicate to boost chlorine, and it slowed us down, even thhough that chit is very alkaline!

 

 



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Raystown Roof Cleaning Central PA 1-800-236-0322 wrote:

Been digging a little,..I found something called "Zeolite" is used in water softening systems. It is a mineral that absorbs calcium,..it is also used as a replacement in sand filters for pools to remove impurites,...and they can somehow be regenerated by flushing them with salt. Sounds almost like it could be done if you have the time to run it through a system at home,.and then use it.

Around $50.00 for 50LB.

Problem we have is,..we are putting a stink load of calcium through in a small amount of time,..may be hard to filter this kind of flow of calcium.

Jeff


 Here is a pool water chart Jeff. Soda Ash (sodium carbonate) is cheaper and better to use then baking soda(sodium bicarbonate)

As can be seen by the charts, it don't take much of this stuff.

 



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I just found this

Water pH strongly influences the dissociation of hypochlorous acid into the hydrogen and hypochlorite ions. Claudi and Mackie (1994) presented a graph showing dissociation of hypochlorous acid versus pH, showing that when the pH of the chlorinated water is approximately 7.5, 50 percent of the chlorine concentration present will be undissociated hypochlorous acid and the remainder, the hypochlorite ion. A 100 percent hypochlorite ion concentration is attained at a water pH of 10. Conversely, at pH 5, 100 percent of the chlorine concentration will be the more effective undissociated hypochlorous acid.



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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Raystown Roof Cleaning Central PA 1-800-236-0322 wrote:

Been digging a little,..I found something called "Zeolite" is used in water softening systems. It is a mineral that absorbs calcium,..it is also used as a replacement in sand filters for pools to remove impurites,...and they can somehow be regenerated by flushing them with salt. Sounds almost like it could be done if you have the time to run it through a system at home,.and then use it.

Around $50.00 for 50LB.

Problem we have is,..we are putting a stink load of calcium through in a small amount of time,..may be hard to filter this kind of flow of calcium.

Jeff


 Here is a pool water chart Jeff. Soda Ash (sodium carbonate) is cheaper and better to use then baking soda(sodium bicarbonate)

As can be seen by the charts, it don't take much of this stuff.

 


 Chris T if that is true about the soda ash give SH little more kick than that would be some thing to look into see how much less SH have to use if you use soda ash roof mix. 

 



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Soda ash = sodium carbonate

When I first started researching the possibility of using sodium bicarbonate as a hypo enhancer/thickener,..I came upon sodium carbonate(soda ash). They both looked like what I was looking for,..and it looked as though the sodium carbonate was a little better,..as it had more of a detergent property over the bicarbonate. There are still alot of people who use old fashioned washing soda as a cleaner around the house,..washing soda is sodium carbonate.

I posted last Fall about the use of sodium bicarbonate mixed with sodium carbonate as an additive. And that I had been using it all last Summer.I mixed the two because I wasn't sure which one I wanted to use,Ha,Ha,...But,..as I stated in that original post,..the sodium carbonate(soda ash) doesn't dissolve very well,..it dissolves some at first and then leaves a bunch of solid little rocks at the bottom,..BUT,.they will dissolve if left to sit,..so premixing the sodium carbonate is something to think about,..I may have also been using to much,not sure. I still have a 5 gallon pail of sodium carbonate that I plan on using in my mix until it's all gone. Maybe buy some more,..but will maybe just stick with the bicarbonate,..we shall see.

But I am going to try it with the CH very soon to see if it helps.


Sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate are both COMPLETELY compatible with SH,..so premixing isn't ever an issue.


Jeff



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Date: Apr 21, 2011
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Raystown Roof Cleaning Central PA 1-800-236-0322 wrote:

Soda ash = sodium carbonate

When I first started researching the possibility of using sodium bicarbonate as a hypo enhancer/thickener,..I came upon sodium carbonate(soda ash). They both looked like what I was looking for,..and it looked as though the sodium carbonate was a little better,..as it had more of a detergent property over the bicarbonate. There are still alot of people who use old fashioned washing soda as a cleaner around the house,..washing soda is sodium carbonate.

I posted last Fall about the use of sodium bicarbonate mixed with sodium carbonate as an additive. And that I had been using it all last Summer.I mixed the two because I wasn't sure which one I wanted to use,Ha,Ha,...But,..as I stated in that original post,..the sodium carbonate(soda ash) doesn't dissolve very well,..it dissolves some at first and then leaves a bunch of solid little rocks at the bottom,..BUT,.they will dissolve if left to sit,..so premixing the sodium carbonate is something to think about,..I may have also been using to much,not sure. I still have a 5 gallon pail of sodium carbonate that I plan on using in my mix until it's all gone. Maybe buy some more,..but will maybe just stick with the bicarbonate,..we shall see.

But I am going to try it with the CH very soon to see if it helps.


Sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate are both COMPLETELY compatible with SH,..so premixing isn't ever an issue.


Jeff


 I have read conflicting reports, one says the hypochlorite ION is 100 percent at a PH of 10 or above, another report said it keeps increasing until PH 12.

The high PH mix hits the algae (organic matter) that has a lower PH, and a PH drop occurs. LOL, maybe it will be better to raise the ph of the algae first by spraying it with the baking soda/water and THEN hit that chit roof cleaning

SH loss strength as it meets organic matter, or loses PH.  Perhaps if we make the organic matter (Algae) a high PH first, and then hit it, we can use LESS strong SH, save money, and do less potential plant damage ?

 

 



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