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type of surfactant will determine affect on plants
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While doing research on a pesticide use on plants I came upon a section about surfactants used in pesticides. Surfactants are classified by the way they ionize or spit apart into electrically charged atoms or molecules called ions. A surfactant with a negative charge is anionic. One with a positive charge is cationic, and one with no charge is nonionic. Cationic surfactants are usually phytotoxic. Bad for plants.

 Nonionic surfactants will penetrate into the plant cuticles.

Anionic surfactants do not readly penetrate plant cuticles.

 Therefore, it would seem using an anionic surfactant would be easier on plants, not allowing the SH to penetrate the plants cuticles so effortlessly.

 Follow the link to the dow site that lists anionic surfactants that are SH compatible.

https://dow-answer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1441/~/dowfax-anionic-surfactants---bleach-stability



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Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan 616-914-9064 wrote:

While doing research on a pesticide use on plants I came upon a section about surfactants used in pesticides. Surfactants are classified by the way they ionize or spit apart into electrically charged atoms or molecules called ions. A surfactant with a negative charge is anionic. One with a positive charge is cationic, and one with no charge is nonionic. Cationic surfactants are usually phytotoxic. Bad for plants.

 Nonionic surfactants will penetrate into the plant cuticles.

Anionic surfactants do not readly penetrate plant cuticles.

 Therefore, it would seem using an anionic surfactant would be easier on plants, not allowing the SH to penetrate the plants cuticles so effortlessly.

 Follow the link to the dow site that lists anionic surfactants that are SH compatible.

https://dow-answer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1441/~/dowfax-anionic-surfactants---bleach-stability


 Good thinking, if we are just talking about surfactants and pesticides. However, the possible penetration of a surfactant is trivial compared to the certain penetration of the chlorine!

No surfactant is going to stop chlorine from penetrating any plant. only prompt rinsing/covering and watching run off is going to do that.

Dawn is Sodium Laurel Sulfate, I assure you, it will still kill plants mixed with chlorine.

 

 



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Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan 616-914-9064 wrote:

While doing research on a pesticide use on plants I came upon a section about surfactants used in pesticides. Surfactants are classified by the way they ionize or spit apart into electrically charged atoms or molecules called ions. A surfactant with a negative charge is anionic. One with a positive charge is cationic, and one with no charge is nonionic. Cationic surfactants are usually phytotoxic. Bad for plants.

 Nonionic surfactants will penetrate into the plant cuticles.

Anionic surfactants do not readly penetrate plant cuticles.

 Therefore, it would seem using an anionic surfactant would be easier on plants, not allowing the SH to penetrate the plants cuticles so effortlessly.

 Follow the link to the dow site that lists anionic surfactants that are SH compatible.

https://dow-answer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1441/~/dowfax-anionic-surfactants---bleach-stability


What I find especially interesting on these charts, is the minor SH strength loss after almost a month!

I always felt that it was noticably weaker after 3-4 days of just sitting there-with 1 gal Dawn in 100 gallon mix ratio.

Still, as to your original point: If an anionic surfactant can accomplis the same thing, with ANY less damaging effect on plants, it's worth considering!

As Chris said "No surfactant is going to stop chlorine from penetrating any plant. only prompt rinsing/covering and watching run off is going to do that.

Dawn is Sodium Laurel Sulfate, I assure you, it will still kill plants mixed with chlorine."

I agree 100% but I also think, as you said "Anionic surfactants do not readly penetrate plant cuticles.

 Therefore, it would seem using an anionic surfactant would be easier on plants, not allowing the SH to penetrate the plants cuticles so effortlessly."

To me, anything that can help at all, is worth consideration!

I'm going to look into this further!

Good post Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan! So, have you settled on a surfactant yourself from this research yet?



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Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 wrote:
Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan 616-914-9064 wrote:

While doing research on a pesticide use on plants I came upon a section about surfactants used in pesticides. Surfactants are classified by the way they ionize or spit apart into electrically charged atoms or molecules called ions. A surfactant with a negative charge is anionic. One with a positive charge is cationic, and one with no charge is nonionic. Cationic surfactants are usually phytotoxic. Bad for plants.

 Nonionic surfactants will penetrate into the plant cuticles.

Anionic surfactants do not readly penetrate plant cuticles.

 Therefore, it would seem using an anionic surfactant would be easier on plants, not allowing the SH to penetrate the plants cuticles so effortlessly.

 Follow the link to the dow site that lists anionic surfactants that are SH compatible.

https://dow-answer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1441/~/dowfax-anionic-surfactants---bleach-stability


What I find especially interesting on these charts, is the minor SH strength loss after almost a month!

I always felt that it was noticably weaker after 3-4 days of just sitting there-with 1 gal Dawn in 100 gallon mix ratio.

Still, as to your original point: If an anionic surfactant can accomplis the same thing, with ANY less damaging effect on plants, it's worth considering!

As Chris said "No surfactant is going to stop chlorine from penetrating any plant. only prompt rinsing/covering and watching run off is going to do that.

Dawn is Sodium Laurel Sulfate, I assure you, it will still kill plants mixed with chlorine."

I agree 100% but I also think, as you said "Anionic surfactants do not readly penetrate plant cuticles.

 Therefore, it would seem using an anionic surfactant would be easier on plants, not allowing the SH to penetrate the plants cuticles so effortlessly."

To me, anything that can help at all, is worth consideration!

I'm going to look into this further!

Good post Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan! So, have you settled on a surfactant yourself from this research yet?


 YES, this does warrant more investigation.



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I haven't settled on a surfactant yet, I am experimenting with some different ones on plants in my yard. ( way out back ) to see if there is a difference.

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Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan 616-914-9064 wrote:

I haven't settled on a surfactant yet, I am experimenting with some different ones on plants in my yard. ( way out back ) to see if there is a difference.


 This is good. I was talking with Bob in Michigan, and he told me he noticed more plant effects when using surfactants!

The increased roof dwell time also increases plant dwell time, so you must water real well when using surfactants!



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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan 616-914-9064 wrote:

I haven't settled on a surfactant yet, I am experimenting with some different ones on plants in my yard. ( way out back ) to see if there is a difference.


 This is good. I was talking with Bob in Michigan, and he told me he noticed more plant effects when using surfactants!

The increased roof dwell time also increases plant dwell time, so you must water real well when using surfactants!


 I hadn't thought of that before, but it makes perfect sence!



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Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Roof Cleaning Grand Rapids Michigan 616-914-9064 wrote:

I haven't settled on a surfactant yet, I am experimenting with some different ones on plants in my yard. ( way out back ) to see if there is a difference.


 This is good. I was talking with Bob in Michigan, and he told me he noticed more plant effects when using surfactants!

The increased roof dwell time also increases plant dwell time, so you must water real well when using surfactants!


 I hadn't thought of that before, but it makes perfect sence!


 Oh, it is for real.



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I think covering is the safest way to go but here in Florida, during the blazing summer months, you have to be very careful because when tarped the leaved can get fried. High noon, tarped plans/shrubs and not a cloud in the sky could spell trouble. July and August I think it's best to keep shrubs watered instead of tarping if possible.



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Roof Cleaning Tallahassee wrote:

I think covering is the safest way to go but here in Florida, during the blazing summer months, you have to be very careful because when tarped the leaved can get fried. High noon, tarped plans/shrubs and not a cloud in the sky could spell trouble. July and August I think it's best to keep shrubs watered instead of tarping if possible.


I agree. We do a combination of tarps and watering.

Shiney, hard leafed plants can handle some SH or tarping.

So we deal with them more at our conveinience? Of course, everything gets watered throughout the job, no matter what-just to different extents.

Soft leafed, pourous leafed plants [ like Hybiscus ] can't, so they get watered-then tarped-then remove the tarps as quicly as possible and water until you leave.



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We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.



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I've never used a tarp and have yet to have any problems. We water excessively though (probably more than need be), especially before we get started ... a plant's roots can only absorb so much, so it's recommended to water heavily before applying your mix.

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That's some really good advice, Chris. Hey guys, I don't wanna hi-jack the thread but an old trick we used to protect more delicate plants when I was staining decks was light colored bed sheets. I'd buy them up when they went on sale at Big Lots or K-mart. We'd wet them a bit to keep them from blowing around and the plants didn't bake in the sun because the sheets allow the plants to breathe. SH would eat them alive I'm afraid. But then again, 100% polyester ones might be helpful in certain situations?     



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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.


With weaker solution won't it take you longer to clean? I have no experience with tile roofs, but with a shingle roof if the stain does not take the first time you cannot just keep hitting. You have to let it dry a bit before another coating will be effective. So I would imagine with a weak solution you may possibly have to go thru more than 2 application/dry cycles.

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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.


Even though I tarp more often than you, I agree!

Don't use stronger SH mixes than you really need!

I am the ground man, if I deem one necessary. confuse

So far, the most I have damaged on 1 job, was 2 plants, which I replaced, even though I'm sure they would have recouperated.

I buy high quality sprinklers and start 2 or 3 going, before we do a thing!

Then, with wet plants, we tarp as we feel is necessary.

The sprinklers run constantly [ even during those times a ground man may be on his cell phone or a cigarette break, or running to the store for something cry ]

They don't get shut off until we are ready to get our check.

I usually also stop back by our jobs a few days later [ assuming they are nearby or I am in the area ] and if all is not perfect-I trim, water and put down some Miracle Grow Miracid-to lower the PH in the soil and on the leaves.

I know that many feel a "living plant watering ground man" is needed.

If you have a really good one-it's probably even better! If he's a cell phone smoke break, run to the store guy, the sprinklers are better. biggrin

Of course, you have to get off the roof a few times and check adjustments.

One thing I do know: Apple Roof Cleaning of Tampa, Florida knows his stuff and pleases his customers in the Tampa area!

Me too in Charlotte and sarasota County + Boca Grande! biggrin



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Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

 

We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.


 

With weaker solution won't it take you longer to clean? I have no experience with tile roofs, but with a shingle roof if the stain does not take the first time you cannot just keep hitting. You have to let it dry a bit before another coating will be effective. So I would imagine with a weak solution you may possibly have to go thru more than 2 application/dry cycles.


 No way a tile roof is cleaning completely, in one pass anyway. A tile has 3 sides and is curved, unlike a flat shingle. Usually, by the time you start your second pass, the solution has cleaned what it is going to clean.



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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

 

We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.


 

With weaker solution won't it take you longer to clean? I have no experience with tile roofs, but with a shingle roof if the stain does not take the first time you cannot just keep hitting. You have to let it dry a bit before another coating will be effective. So I would imagine with a weak solution you may possibly have to go thru more than 2 application/dry cycles.


 No way a tile roof is cleaning completely, in one pass anyway. A tile has 3 sides and is curved, unlike a flat shingle. Usually, by the time you start your second pass, the solution has cleaned what it is going to clean.


Never in 1 pass, if it's the least bit discolored with algae.

Half the time it's 3 passes!

I don't let my shingled roofs dry as I go either - if I can help it.

I don't keep them wet enough to run off, but I don't want parts of them going dry either.

As long as the mix is wet on any roof, it's working. If it dries, it stopped working.

That's my experience anyway?



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Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

 

We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.


 

With weaker solution won't it take you longer to clean? I have no experience with tile roofs, but with a shingle roof if the stain does not take the first time you cannot just keep hitting. You have to let it dry a bit before another coating will be effective. So I would imagine with a weak solution you may possibly have to go thru more than 2 application/dry cycles.


 No way a tile roof is cleaning completely, in one pass anyway. A tile has 3 sides and is curved, unlike a flat shingle. Usually, by the time you start your second pass, the solution has cleaned what it is going to clean.


Never in 1 pass, if it's the least bit discolored with algae.

Half the time it's 3 passes!

I don't let my shingled roofs dry as I go either - if I can help it.

I don't keep them wet enough to run off, but I don't want parts of them going dry either.

As long as the mix is wet on any roof, it's working. If it dries, it stopped working.

That's my experience anyway?


 Heck, sometimes when a shingle roof is really really hot, it is best to wet one side down at a time to cool it off, then spray it when it is wet. Less fumes from chlorine "smoke", and I am convinced the wet roof seems to "activate" the surfactant, and makes for a pretty roof.

Yes, some Tile Roofs can take 3 or even 4 passes to get all the edges and faces of the tile. And, that is no "Sin". Roof Cleaning is not a road race, and bad chit happens when you try to rush things.



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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

 

We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.


 

With weaker solution won't it take you longer to clean? I have no experience with tile roofs, but with a shingle roof if the stain does not take the first time you cannot just keep hitting. You have to let it dry a bit before another coating will be effective. So I would imagine with a weak solution you may possibly have to go thru more than 2 application/dry cycles.


 No way a tile roof is cleaning completely, in one pass anyway. A tile has 3 sides and is curved, unlike a flat shingle. Usually, by the time you start your second pass, the solution has cleaned what it is going to clean.


Never in 1 pass, if it's the least bit discolored with algae.

Half the time it's 3 passes!

I don't let my shingled roofs dry as I go either - if I can help it.

I don't keep them wet enough to run off, but I don't want parts of them going dry either.

As long as the mix is wet on any roof, it's working. If it dries, it stopped working.

That's my experience anyway?


 Heck, sometimes when a shingle roof is really really hot, it is best to wet one side down at a time to cool it off, then spray it when it is wet. Less fumes from chlorine "smoke", and I am convinced the wet roof seems to "activate" the surfactant, and makes for a pretty roof.

Yes, some Tile Roofs can take 3 or even 4 passes to get all the edges and faces of the tile. And, that is no "Sin". Roof Cleaning is not a road race, and bad chit happens when you try to rush things.


 good reply Chris, I always use a weak mix and I have to go over a dirty roof 3 and 4 times, but I rather do that than killing plants.



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Roof Cleaning Lanoka Harbor NJ 609-971-6553 wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

 

We almost never tarp, except a fish pond. But then we have great groundspeople (Me)

When I work cleaning roofs in tampa fl , chit just rarely if ever happens, and maybe a spot or 2, never wholesale slaughter.  The "trick" to working w/o tarping is to work in the weaker ranges of the chemical. The faster a strong solution cleans, the faster it kills plants.


 

With weaker solution won't it take you longer to clean? I have no experience with tile roofs, but with a shingle roof if the stain does not take the first time you cannot just keep hitting. You have to let it dry a bit before another coating will be effective. So I would imagine with a weak solution you may possibly have to go thru more than 2 application/dry cycles.


 No way a tile roof is cleaning completely, in one pass anyway. A tile has 3 sides and is curved, unlike a flat shingle. Usually, by the time you start your second pass, the solution has cleaned what it is going to clean.


Never in 1 pass, if it's the least bit discolored with algae.

Half the time it's 3 passes!

I don't let my shingled roofs dry as I go either - if I can help it.

I don't keep them wet enough to run off, but I don't want parts of them going dry either.

As long as the mix is wet on any roof, it's working. If it dries, it stopped working.

That's my experience anyway?


 Heck, sometimes when a shingle roof is really really hot, it is best to wet one side down at a time to cool it off, then spray it when it is wet. Less fumes from chlorine "smoke", and I am convinced the wet roof seems to "activate" the surfactant, and makes for a pretty roof.

Yes, some Tile Roofs can take 3 or even 4 passes to get all the edges and faces of the tile. And, that is no "Sin". Roof Cleaning is not a road race, and bad chit happens when you try to rush things.


 good reply Chris, I always use a weak mix and I have to go over a dirty roof 3 and 4 times, but I rather do that than killing plants.


 ANY idiot can take strong roof cleaning mixtures, and one coat "splash and dash".

But a real pro works in the weaker cleaning concentrations. So what if you have to go over parts of a roof a few times, or wait a little longer between coats ?

You will kill less plants, and protect the integrity of the roof to shingle bond. Excessively Strong Chlorine Solutions WILL remove roofing granules, and that's a fact.



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