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Date: Oct 31, 2010
A question for the Chemistry majors
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Today I had a potential client (soon to be client) say to me, you don't use any bleach do you?  It was after I'd answered this question in detail, which I've answered a number of times before, that prompted a thought...

First a quick re-cap:

household bleach    5(?)% sodium hypochlorite  (or is it 4% - I don't recall)
1% sodium hydroxide (to stabilize the SH)
Balance is water


One of the many benefits of the ARMA/RCIA solution that I mention to potential clients is the lack of sodium hydroxide, ie lye, ie degreaser etc.

But what if...  one were to add 1 part per 100 of sodium hydroxide to the straight SH storage tanks/drums.  Would it prolong the strength and shelf life of 12%?   The same for any mix that is 100% chlorine stable, ie no Dawn and no alcohol.  Could sodium hydroxide keep it hot longer?




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  My S.H. guy said S.H. was made 2 different ways.  Their way of making it, the sodium hydroxide wouldn't help.  I had the same thought.

-- Edited by ACE on Sunday 31st of October 2010 09:17:26 PM

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My wife, MS Degree in Chemisty, and 25 plus years in Chloro-Alkali industry say, "I don't think so."

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ALL commercially availiable Sodium Hypochlorite has from 1 to 2 percent Sodium Hydroxide in it. It is a remnant of the manufucturing process, and left in for better stability/shelf life

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All Roof Cleaning Lake Charles Louisiana wrote:

My wife, MS Degree in Chemisty, and 25 plus years in Chloro-Alkali industry say, "I don't think so."




Thanks Dennis.  If the Mrs. is willing, and only if she is willing, could you kindly ask her to explain in lay terms?  I don't doubt her answer one bit, yet based on my recently new profession, I'd REALLY like to better understand this and be able to speak to this.

The big household manufactures put it in there for something I would think.

I stunk at chemistry.  Balancing chemical equations KILLED my GPA.

*White flag emoticon goes here*

Thanks bud, and many thanks to your wife.




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First a quick lesson in how chlorine and sodium hydroxide are made.

Chlorine and NaOH (commonly called caustic soda) are products of the electrolysis of NaCl (table salt). One other product from this reaction is hydrogen gas. There are three major chloro-alkali producers in the US. Some also make sodium hypochlorite, however a lot of SH is produced by smaller companies that purchase chlorine and caustic from the big guys and make the SH themselves.

Sodium Hypochloite can be made by reintroducing chlorine into a solution of sodium hydroxide (simply mix the two back together) or it can be pulled off as a side stream during the process of making chlorine and sodium hydroxide in the electrolysis process.

On your question about, "The big household manufactures put it in there for something I would think."?..... Chris Tucker is absolutely right (no surprise) in his answer that they put extra sodium hydroxide in. The slight excess is there to retain as much of the free chlorine as it can... to give it a longer shelf life. There is only so much that can be done to retain the chlorine... the longer SH sets and the hotter the storage temperature, those chlorine molecules are getting there act together and finding a way out of solution. It may stand to reason that putting in more sodium hydroxide could hold it in longer, but there's more to the chemistry than just dilution and adsorption.

Hope this helps.

Dennis

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Thank you Dennis and Mrs. Dennis.  Somehow I missed Chris's post as well - sorry folks.   And thank you Chris.

Man, and I thought we were on to something here.....


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If anyone wants to know why chemistry kicked my a$$, read Dennis' post above.  LOL.

Thank goodness for chemists.


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I too had a GPA drop due to chemistry and dropped it! After that it was a breeze!

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I feared 11th grade chemistry so much I skipped it and took physics instead. Thank y'all for the question AND a good answer.

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All Roof Cleaning Lake Charles Louisiana wrote:

First a quick lesson in how chlorine and sodium hydroxide are made.

Chlorine and NaOH (commonly called caustic soda) are products of the electrolysis of NaCl (table salt). One other product from this reaction is hydrogen gas. There are three major chloro-alkali producers in the US. Some also make sodium hypochlorite, however a lot of SH is produced by smaller companies that purchase chlorine and caustic from the big guys and make the SH themselves.

Sodium Hypochloite can be made by reintroducing chlorine into a solution of sodium hydroxide (simply mix the two back together) or it can be pulled off as a side stream during the process of making chlorine and sodium hydroxide in the electrolysis process.

On your question about, "The big household manufactures put it in there for something I would think."?..... Chris Tucker is absolutely right (no surprise) in his answer that they put extra sodium hydroxide in. The slight excess is there to retain as much of the free chlorine as it can... to give it a longer shelf life. There is only so much that can be done to retain the chlorine... the longer SH sets and the hotter the storage temperature, those chlorine molecules are getting there act together and finding a way out of solution. It may stand to reason that putting in more sodium hydroxide could hold it in longer, but there's more to the chemistry than just dilution and adsorption.

Hope this helps.

Dennis



When I first started cleaning roofs,I bought all my chemical from Univar. One day I called to order a 53 gal barrel and was told they were out of stock, but they had some special mixture they do for Rohm & Hass chemical that was the same stuff. I bought it and WOW was it hot. Called them back to see what else was in there and I was told it contained no LESS than 5% Sodium Hydroxide. After I learned how to read the labels to tell when the product was made, I discovered that that drum was almost 5 months old. Normal shelf life is 30 days.  Must be something to this talk.
Gary

 



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Date: Oct 26, 2011
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very interesting stuff, i had no idea sodium hydroxide was in SH already. i wonder if i should find out how much is in the stuff I get so I can be aware of potential problems with painted surfaces...

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If this type of info should be seen only by premium RCIA members and this thread should be moved to the premium side. evileye  This is the type of material that paying members have access to and why you non premium mebers should join the RCIA. wink





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