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SP Cleaning · May 29, 2009

RE: 12V Delavan FATBOY 7gpm pump

Guest

Remember you should still have a back up , even the best stuff breaks down , but that pump your looking at is a poly pump with a teflon diapham don't forget its used make sure you can return it, go to Yamada's site to see the pumps spec's

RCIA Founder

SP Cleaning wrote:

OK all this talk about Diaphragm pumps has me interested. Are these pumps that are listed on Ebay right now usable for ROOF CLEANING? EBAY ITEM Z180349801566. I have some capital to spend, and I was going the fatboy route, but probably can go the Air Diaphragm rout. Any thoughts? Thanks guys.

Chris

OMG NO NO NO !!
That is an NDP 25, way too big a pump to run off a smaller air compressor.
Look for a 3/8 or 1/2 inch air diapraghm pump.
Yamada is NOT the only air diapraghm pump out there.
As long as it is a Poly Pump and you rinse it, and cover it from the Suns harmful UV Rays, you will be fine.
Stay away from Acetal, Aluminum, Stainless Pump Bodies.
Look for Polyproplyne, Kynar better yet, more expensive.
Look here http://www.dultmeier.com/products/search/1315

Even the smallest air diapraghm pump is 6.8 GPM and only 78.00 !!!!!!!!!!
This little bastard will run on a small compressor too !

-- Edited by Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa (813) 655-8777 on Friday 29th of May 2009 09:06:51 PM

SP Cleaning · May 29, 2009

Chris,
I have about $2,000 budgeted for a pump, air compressor, hose, plumbing. I already have a trailer, F450, tanks, 400' 3/4" commercial water hose, ladders etc. I have a separate budget for marketing, uniforms etc. I was looking at this 13hp. compressor
and at those prices, I could buy several pumps so I have backup. I may have to rethink the Fatboy idea.

Chris

RCIA Founder

SP Cleaning wrote:

Chris,
I have about $2,000 budgeted for a pump, air compressor, hose, plumbing. I already have a trailer, F450, tanks, 400' 3/4" commercial water hose, ladders etc. I have a separate budget for marketing, uniforms etc. I was looking at this 13hp. compressor
and at those prices, I could buy several pumps so I have backup. I may have to rethink the Fatboy idea.

Chris

I JUST bought one of these, LOVE it !!!
It is overkill, for a 1/2 inch pump, BUT .....
It is electric start, and just LOAFS powering the 1/2 inch Yamada.
BUY it, get the 2 year extra warranty, store replacement ONLY !!
Enjoy, iot is a HOSS.
BTW, the smalller 6.5 hp compressor works just fine on sale for 399,00
THIS big azz compressor turns a Yamada 1/2 inch pump into a TRUE suiperpump!
It is ALL about the air!
Like a power washer NEEDS HP to make full pressure, and air pump likes LOTS of Air.
This bastard delivers the goods.

Roof Cleaning Richmond VA 804-687-4960 · Guest

I have been Very please with my fatboy, Thinking about adding 2 Marine Batteries.

RCIA Founder

Roof Cleaning Richmond VA 804-687-4960 wrote:

I have been Very please with my fatboy, Thinking about adding 2 Marine Batteries.

Yeah, deep cycle Marine are the best way to go with thick wire.
The pump will overheat if not fed enough amps.

SP Cleaning · Jun 1, 2009

Chris, After reading everything I can find about ROOF CLEANING setups, 12v Vs air diaphragm, I am going Air Diaphragm. The 13 Hp compressor you bought and I am looking at, is it too much power for residential work? confuse

I read one of your posts that it is a huge boost in psi/flow. should I be looking at something smaller, or can I regulate that cfm in some way? I would really like to buy that compressor, but I don't want to struggle with Too much power. The yamada NDP15-FPT calls for 12cfm. This compressor is 18.7 cfm @ 100psi. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks for all your help!!!

Chris

RCIA Founder

SP Cleaning wrote:

Chris, After reading everything I can find about ROOF CLEANING setups, 12v Vs air diaphragm, I am going Air Diaphragm. The 13 Hp compressor you bought and I am looking at, is it too much power for residential work? I read one of your posts that it is a huge boost in psi/flow. should I be looking at something smaller, or can I regulate that cfm in some way? I would really like to buy that compressor, but I don't want to struggle with Too much power. The yamada NDP15-FPT calls for 12cfm. This compressor is 18.7 cfm @ 100psi. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks for all your help!!!

Chris

We have had no problems, YET !
But READ, especially the last post ?
It says CFM determines Pump Speed !
It gives a way to regulate CFM

Air operated double diaphragm pumps (AODDP) require the correct amount of pressure (PSI, pounds per square inch) and air (CFM, cubic feet per minute) to deliver the proper amount of fluid. A typical air operated diaphragm curve shows how the correct amount of pressure and CFM are required to deliver a required flow rate against a discharge head.

Problem: Plenty of Pressure But Too Low CFM

In many Air Operated Diaphragm (AOD) applications, the end user has ample amount of pressure on the gauge reading but has no idea the available CFM. It is just as critical to have the correct amount of CFM available as it is pressure to achieve a desired flow rate. Many end users might state that they have a 100-psi gauge reading on their double diaphragm pump but they are not getting the desired GPM as promised in the flow curve.

In this situation, remember that the pressure to the pump is needed to achieve the desired flow point but the CFM determines the actual output in GPM. The pressure to the pump overcomes the discharge head, and the CFM determines the actual gallons pumped per minute.

CFM meters can be installed in the air line to determine the amount of CFM available at a given location in a facility. Note that one BHP = 5-cfm.

Problem: Air Supply Hose/Line Too Small

Every AODD pump requires a certain amount of CFM to deliver the required GPM. Properly size the supply air hose and supply line to ensure an adequate amount of CFM is supplied to the pump.

Assume your air operated pump application requires 40-cfm at 80-psi to deliver 100-gpm. You installed 10- ft of 3/8-in air hose and wondered why it never achieved 100-gpm. The maximum CFM that can pass through a 3/8-in air hose is 30-cfm. The pump will never deliver the 100-gpm because not enough CFM can be supplied to the pump to achieve the desired flow rate of 100-gpm.

If the supply air hose was increased to ½-in, which can pass 60-cfm, the desired 100-gpm can be achieved. The same scenario holds true for hard pipe. By increasing a pipe from 2-in to 2.5-in, CFM capabilities increase from 500-cfm to 2,000-cfm.

The size of the air hose and supply hard pipe is commonly overlooked and can create problems not only for air operated pumps but also for any pneumatic piece of equipment.

Problem: Incorrect Air Supply System Layout

The correct piping layout for a compressed air system is critical to achieving the maximum performance from an air operated pump. Often air operated pumps do not run properly due to poor piping designs.

Remember to keep the water and compressor oil out of the air motors of air operated pumps. The air supply pipe that supplies the air operated pump should come from an inverted tee to prevent the water and compressor oil from seeping into the air motor of the air pump. Too much water and oil in the air motor will prevent the air pump from performing and possibly stall the pump.

Problem: Air Regulator Too Small

What if an air operated pump requires 50-cfm at 100-psi to pump 120-gpm, and the pump is installed with the proper size air line to pass the 50-cfm but still does not deliver the required 120-gpm? Further investigation reveals that the installed air regulator reads 100-psi but can only pass a maximum of 25-cfm.

The pump will never deliver the required GPM because of the shortage of CFM. The solution is to install a regulator that can pass the 50-cfm achieving the 120-gpm. This potential problem is commonly overlooked when installing an air regulator to determine the rated CFM.

The main problem in the field is that the typical end user will use the regulator in line to control the speed of the pump (CFM) which determines the gallons pumped. When increasing and decreasing the pressure on an air regulator simultaneously, the CFM is increased or decreased. The regulator does have an orifice inside when adjusting the pressure, which increases or decreases the speed of the air operated pump. When using the regulator to control the speed enough pressure may not be supplied to overcome the discharge head and consequently achieve the flow the application may require.

Problem: Air Pumps Running Too Fast and Burning Up Compressed Air

Remember the CFM and not pressure controls the speed of an air pump. Installing a needle valve after the regulator is the correct installation to achieve the desired speed of the air pump.

If an air pump must run at a constant speed regardless of supplied pressure, install a needle valve out of sight and set at desired CFM to maintain a constant speed for the air pump.

New air motors can be preset to ensure that the air pump runs at a constant speed to avoid excessive costs on compressed air.

-- Edited by Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa (813) 655-8777 on Monday 1st of June 2009 08:20:43 PM

SP Cleaning · Jun 1, 2009

Thanks Chris, I'm in.... it's the 13hp compressor with a Yamada NDP15-FPT. I'll play with nozzles to find the sweet spot. I'm going to pick this up next week. I will have pics of the setup as I go along. Hopefully this will be useful to others. Thanks Again!!!!

Chris

RCIA Founder

Here, watch this http://www.yamadapump.com/flash_files/ndp_pump_operation.html
This is what happens inside an air pump biggrin

RCIA Founder

SP Cleaning wrote:

Chris, After reading everything I can find about ROOF CLEANING setups, 12v Vs air diaphragm, I am going Air Diaphragm. The 13 Hp compressor you bought and I am looking at, is it too much power for residential work? I read one of your posts that it is a huge boost in psi/flow. should I be looking at something smaller, or can I regulate that cfm in some way? I would really like to buy that compressor, but I don't want to struggle with Too much power. The yamada NDP15-FPT calls for 12cfm. This compressor is 18.7 cfm @ 100psi. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks for all your help!!!

Chris

Here is the question you asked, being asked by me to Yamada.
Here is the email correspondance from Dave Hollen their Head Engineer.
Because it is email correspondance, it reads backwards biggrin

To make a long story short, a bigger compressor will not harm the pump !

Tucker" <ka7niq@yahoo.com>

Yes.

David Hollen

Yamada America, Inc.

800-990-7867

From: Chris Tucker [mailto:ka7niq@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:24 AM
To: Dave Hollen - Yamada America Inc.
Subject: RE: Too MUCH CFM For AODD Pumps ???

Dave, My Compressor is 18 CFM

Is this OK ?

Chris Tucker
Owner - Apple Roof Cleaning
President - Brandon Singles
813 - 655 - 8777
www.saferoofcleaning.com
www.brandonsingles.com

--- On Tue, 6/2/09, Dave Hollen - Yamada America Inc. <Dave@yamadapump.com> wrote:

From: Dave Hollen - Yamada America Inc. <Dave@yamadapump.com>
Subject: RE: Too MUCH CFM For AODD Pumps ???
To: ka7niq@yahoo.com
Cc: " Karen Chambers - Yamada America Inc. " <Karen@yamadapump.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 10:54 AM

No but if you are using 18 SCFM you may have an air leak as the pump
should be using about 12 SCFM.

David Hollen
Yamada America, Inc.

800-990-7867
-
-----Original Message-----
From: chris [mailto:ka7niq@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:37 PM
To: sales
Subject: Too MUCH CFM For AODD Pumps ???

Will running Yamada NDP 15's at 18 CFM HURT the pump ?
We keep pressure turned back to 60 psi ?
HATE to give up my big compressor ?
Pump really sprays like a male cat , LOL !!!

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SP Cleaning · Jun 2, 2009

Chris, Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to help me get this question answered.... from a manufacturers rep. no less..... This is just another example of how you are dedicated to this group of ROOF CLEANING Brotherhood. You are giving back your time and expertise to us new comers to the ROOF CLEANING business, as well as the many seasoned guys. YOU DA MAN!!!! biggrin

I look forward to meeting you in July.

To all the active members out there....... thank you as well for all your tips, tricks etc, on cleaning, marketing and everything else.

To all the new guys in the business, learn everything you can about the proper cleaning processes, SAFETY, marketing, and the business side of ROOF CLEANING. Then give back your experiences, tips tricks, setups, pics etc. It is all about learning and giving back.
Chris Tucker is a prime example of this. He has built a great business, learned things "The Hard Way" and is now giving back to all of us.

I will buy the big dog compressor, to run the Yamada. I will also look into the needle valve addition to keep a constant pump speed.

Thanks again CHRIS, VINNY, PAT, MIKE, and EVERYONE of you guys for your time and help.

Chris

RCIA Founder

SP Cleaning wrote:

Chris, Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to help me get this question answered.... from a manufacturers rep. no less..... This is just another example of how you are dedicated to this group of ROOF CLEANING Brotherhood. You are giving back your time and expertise to us new comers to the ROOF CLEANING business, as well as the many seasoned guys. YOU DA MAN!!!!
I look forward to meeting you in July.

To all the active members out there....... thank you as well for all your tips, tricks etc, on cleaning, marketing and everything else.

To all the new guys in the business, learn everything you can about the proper cleaning processes, SAFETY, marketing, and the business side of ROOF CLEANING. Then give back your experiences, tips tricks, setups, pics etc. It is all about learning and giving back.
Chris Tucker is a prime example of this. He has built a great business, learned things "The Hard Way" and is now giving back to all of us.

I will buy the big dog compressor, to run the Yamada. I will also look into the needle valve addition to keep a constant pump speed.

Thanks again CHRIS, VINNY, PAT, MIKE, and EVERYONE of you guys for your time and help.

Chris

Thanks Chris, we try hard to be of help here.
I LOVE my Big Azz Compressor from Harbor Freight.
It is so cool to just turn the key, and it starts!
It LOAFS with the 1/2 inch Yamada NDP 15 pumps, meaning it will laST A LONG TIME.
It has 2 belts vs one on a standard compressor, longer life, no slips!
Use Mobil One oil in it I was told.

IF you are comcerned about "too much CFM" a ball valve in the airline is a crude way to cut air flow down, but it works.
If ya think about it, shop tools are always run off HUGE Compressors ?
They only take the air they NEED.
Otherwise, they would blow UP ?

If Dave Hollen from Yamada says it is ok, it is OK !

I wanted to be absolutely SURE before I gave you advice, even though we use this compressor w/o incident, except tremendous pump performance.
So, that is why I brought Yamada in on the discussion.

WAY too much "Internet Roof Cleaning Advice" that is bad.
Maybe not Intentionally bad, but bad advice nonetheless.

Sometimes, it is like Stevie Wonder driving Ray Charles around when I read some Roof Cleaning Advice on the Internet.
The blind leading the blind.

Confident Roof Cleaning Houston TX · Guest

Just a quick tip before you spend that kind of cash. Buy a relay switch for the starter of a car and replace the one on the fatboy. Thats what went out.

If you are bound and determined to buy a Air pump, I will pay for shipping if you want to get rid of your fatboy...

Guest

Scott can you post some pictures of what you did with the starter relay and what starter relay did you buy since theres many ,if this happens to some else they'll know what to do

Confident Roof Cleaning Houston TX · Guest

We actually had one sitting around the garage from a Camaro. The fatboy comes with a relay attached to the front. You just unscrew it, detach the wires, and hook up the new one.

Ones from radio shack wont work. They are not durable enough. I will try and get some picture close up tomorrow when I get into the office.

Roof Cleaning Richmond VA 804-687-4960 · Guest

Thanks for the heads up on the starter relay, Plan to hit granger in the morning and do some PM on my little maker.

Guest

How does this work with the pressure switch ?

Guest

Sorry for the late reply about the fatboy, as for my inlet lines to the pump they are 3/4 pvc with a 3 way 3/4 ball valve to the pump, then 3/4 out to my titan hose reel to 200ft of 5/8 hose to a 3/4 ball valve. I also ran 10 gage wire to a heavy duty tractor battery so I had plenty of amps. I had an air compressor already so it was a choice to buy another delavan fatboy or just get the air diaphram pump and since Chris and also Lori had talked about them I figured I will just try it out. I ordered the yamada NDP-15FPS pump from BNP Pumps, I had it within 3 days. I used it for the first time yesterday with my regulator set only to 60 psi since it was a small roof and it was great, did very well. What I found to be nice about it, I turned up the regulator up to 100 psi and had more distance and coverage. Did not need it but on a windy day it will come in handy.

Thanks for the heads up on that starter relay, I will get me one tomorrow and change it out for my other rig that has the small delavan pump for the trailer set up, but once I get an air compressor for the trailer it will also be air diaphram pump to.

I plan on posting some pictures of my box truck and trailer with the set up if any one would like to see, thanks for the help Chris and taking the time to talk with me last week. Also Lori was very honest with me when I was looking for a air pump and referred me to the yamada pump because that was what would be best for me and not just trying to get a sell, that go's a long way with me and say's some good things about Lori and pressure washer service sales peeps.

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