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Post Info TOPIC: Cleaning Asphalt Shingles with low PSI water only has more benefits than Chemicals


Premium Member Roof Cleaning Institute of America Certified Roof Cleaning Specialist

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Date: Jan 22, 2015
Cleaning Asphalt Shingles with low PSI water only has more benefits than Chemicals
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Couldn't put it any better or any clearer myself Chris!
I doubt very much this guy actually believed that he could promote blasting roofs and still use our RCIA logo, which promotes non-pressure cleaning, such as the roofing manufacturers themselves specify.
He just wanted our SEO juice and was dumb enough to think this would turn out to his benefit.



-- Edited by Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 08:41:17 PM

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Serving Englewood Rotonda North Port Cape Haze Venice Port Charlotte Punta Gorda Boca Grande Charlotte and Southern Sarasota Counties in Florida.

941-698-1959
www.bergmanroofcleaning.com

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNlN3R7CqI



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Now all of you can see the type of boneheads that are all around Palm Beach. 99% of my calls start out with "I need my roof pressure cleaned/washed." Its irritating to say the least. Then you get people that freak out if you say bleach, like its going to melt their roof. As we have said already, its in our water supply, pools, bathrooms, and washing machines but if its sprayed on the roof it becomes a huge deal. Chemical cleaning is still unknown to many and that is the only reason it is feared for no reason. If chemical cleaning was as popular as pressure cleaning is we would all be better off.

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Kevin



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Date: Jan 22, 2015
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Stay Clean wrote:

Now all of you can see the type of boneheads that are all around Palm Beach. 99% of my calls start out with "I need my roof pressure cleaned/washed." Its irritating to say the least. Then you get people that freak out if you say bleach, like its going to melt their roof. As we have said already, its in our water supply, pools, bathrooms, and washing machines but if its sprayed on the roof it becomes a huge deal. Chemical cleaning is still unknown to many and that is the only reason it is feared for no reason. If chemical cleaning was as popular as pressure cleaning is we would all be better off.


Wow, not over here in Tampa! People are scared Chitless of pressure washing any roof. In fact, once, maybe 10 years ago, we had a pressure washer on our truck only for driveways, etc. It scared my customers  so bad we removed it! 



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711 Westbrook

Brandon, FL 33511

813 655 8777

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Date: Jan 22, 2015
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roofcleanerspalmbeachcom wrote:

I put up logo on my website after joining this site, my bad as I could not find any info till now that you have to be a paid member of $129.00 to display it. Since I have not paid the $129.00 yet it was proper to delete it.

Q: Is this site membership for powerwashers (h20) or just chemical roof cleaners?


That's how it works?  You join a website (as a guest) and start flying their colors?  Hmmm, I think I'll head over to the Mensa International website and sign up next. :0)

(that was more joke that poking fun at you Chris.)

 

Oh, and to add to the list of commonly used surfaces for bleach, it is used on surfaces used for preparing food, sanitizing countless surfaces (including roofs), tons of metal surfaces are bleached daily with no corrosion, so I don't see why people think applying bleach to a roof will cause shingles to curl and nails and gutters to rust.  Granted, in theoretical debates (purely theoretical) bleach could possibly do something, but in real life measurements, it's not going to happen.  Gutters and nails would need to be replaced long before a roof due to the galvanic corrosion.  Roofs would be replaced from age (multiple times) before any bleach applied from a roof cleaning would cause any damage, which is definitely much safer than blasting a roof with high pressure water.  That just erodes away the surface.

 

When you get a chance, could you please post that ARMA link where they say that pressure washing a roof is the way to go (a current link, not an outdated PDF copy from 1974)?  I haven't been able to locate that specific link yet.  I'm no lawyer (and don't care to contact one myself), but if you can't provide that link, some may consider that false advertisement.  Again, I'm not against you earning a living, but if you're doing so by spewing falsehoods and stepping on the backs of people working as honestly as they can just so you can earn a quick buck at their expense, then you may be leaving yourself open for some legal issues.  We all try to earn cash by following the ARMA guidelines and telling the world we are all wrong is well, just wrong. 

 

You know what...I have a sealed spare 5 gallon container of pretty fresh bleach in the garage that I was going to just put into jugs and use in the laundry.  For the sake of honestly being able to tell people what happens, this weekend I'm going to submerge a shingle in the 1 gallon SH and leave it there for a while and gauge any damage week by week.  If 1 gallon bleach won't kill a shingle after 24/7 submersion, we'll have the answer, vs. a brief coating of normal bleach strength used on a roof for a cleaning.  It's good to have that example and conviction in your voice when you tell people no harm will come to their roof from the bleach, especially when you've done the test yourself vs. taking someone else's word for it.

Chris, I invite you to join this site and the SoftWash Systems forums and other sites that follow the ARMA guidelines to use bleach for roof cleaning, get some new up to date training and certifications and join the new era.  If we really can splash and dash a house in 30 minutes (which we can't), you'll make better money while following the ARMA guidelines and not damage any roofs from high pressure water, and your cleaning service will last much longer.  You have the skills and knowledge, so it would be an easy transition for you, I'm sure of it.  And I'd also feel better if you started using some personal protective gear such as a harness.  After 12 years on the rescue squad and 2 in an ER, I've seen too many instances of people bypassing safety to get a job done quicker, and it usually pays off just fine, but that one time you need PPE and don't have it could ruin the rest of your life, if not end it.  Like seat belts...you may only need them for a couple of seconds in your life versus wearing them for thousands of hours, but the payoff is worth it.  There was a father and son team here where the son recently broke his ankle while cleaning a roof and the last I heard the son had multiple surgeries in front of him and may well never be able to get on a roof again.  I became dormant on these sites as the warm weather became dormant, but I've still prayed for him from time to time and like him, you're my brother in Christ and I honestly do wish the best for you, no matter your opinions on how we use bleach. 

 

If you have any questions, please, ask millions of them.  This forum and the other I mentioned are both filled with very helpful people if you give them the opportunity, with multitudes of ways to clean without high pressure water. 



-- Edited by Troy Layman on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 10:04:17 PM

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Date: Jan 24, 2015
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Here is his ad... chemical roof cleaning is a scam he says


miami.craigslist.org/pbc/biz/4856139699.html

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Kevin



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Date: Jan 24, 2015
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Stay Clean wrote:

Here is his ad... chemical roof cleaning is a scam he says


miami.craigslist.org/pbc/biz/4856139699.html


 He is trying to market what he sells. He seems like a likeable enough fellow in his videos. It is always a sales mistake to slam someone else, or their methods of roof cleaning.

We never bring up competitors, unless asked by a customer. But this guy come out with both barrels blazing, right from the start. IMHO, he is MAKING shoppers out of his potential customers.

 



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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa Florida

711 Westbrook

Brandon, FL 33511

813 655 8777

See our website here 

Click here for more information

Here are more of our services

Watch a short video

 




 



stupid ass trouble maker

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Date: Jan 24, 2015
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Chemical Roof Cleaners usually make their mix in 100 gallon batch or larger.

From reading: Per 100 gallons the are typically starting out with 60gal water 40 gal SH!. That's 40 gallons! for tough jobs some add powered bleach that is 65% strength!
The adding a very concentrated soap to help thinker or allow the solution to stick rather than run off the roof onto the environment. But what happens if it rains, or the morning dew, or over time...were do these chemicals go??. This is their big problem, stopping the product hit the ground, patio, trim, furniture etc.

Readers/chemical contractors perhaps you can chime in the mixe's used.

NB: household bleach is 1%, Pool Chlorine is 10%. Chemical roof cleaning with chemicals in tanks are whole new ball game!

That's 20, 30 40 gallons of SH applied to one roof/property!. this is far too much! Think about all the houses down the street that back up to a lake...I would not eat those Bass for sure!

Traditional pressure cleaners add chlorine through a downstream chemical injector that sucks the chlorine out of a 2.5 gal jug this is a very low amount... This should NOT be confused with tank set up chemical roof cleaning. These two applications are VERY different in strength by huge amounts!

Referring to chemical roof cleaning as a bit of bleach that is harmless is a gross understatement in relation to the chemicals used and their strength applications

Perhaps you can reply as to the exact strength of product you are using, as this should be disclosed to home owners, they need to know, especially since roofs cost 20k, 30k, 40-50k even more money.
The roof is the single biggest asset to the home, and its job is to preform 20-30 years or more. However if you are applying strong chemicals to it every 2-3 years it sure sounds like the roofing market is a good business to be in. What we do see is a lot of roofs failing in the valleys or collection areas.

I am surprised that your above chemical roof contractor above, does not know what will happen to his shingle test, yet he applies it to roofs, and I might add that he applies the chemical to metal, nails and other roof accessories while he is doing his test. Roofs can leak from rusty nails, especially in valleys, and with asphalt shingles as the nail is just under the tab, and under that...only 30lb tar paper that is a thin minimum membrane. Perhaps stick your hand in it too, or take a good wiff of it.
Also it turns Roof Tile dull and brittle so the next person walking on the roof breaks a lot of them easier. As for Cedar shake it dries out the wood, sucks the natural tannins out, and the shake start curling from drying out very quickly

I consider this type of roof cleaning nothing to do with pressure cleaning at all, yet your lic workers comp classifications are the same for very different work on a pitched surface that is very slippery.

Have any of you made a workers comp claim for chemical roof cleaning under your current classification...by the time its get to pay the damage, the insurance company could have a reason 'not to payout'. believe me...I don't wish this on anybody, but it needs to be addressed for safety and also liability which would fall on the customers/homeowner behalf.

I think chemical roof cleaning needs more guideline's from local and state, there are no regulations and kids are mixing up chemicals in their garage, storing them, driving them around in big tanks on questionable vehicles/trailers with little training on anything really...its a big worry. Swimming pool companies & chemical companies handle the same chemicals however they are treated different ...why?, and they are not atomizing them into the atmosphere 20 feet up with wands

I am sure you would not wash your vehicle with your chemical...so why a 30k roof?

I hope you can address these issues, but I feel you cant because the chemical is SH that you use, and we all know what it does...its not bio degradable, perhaps your techy soap is that's added to it

Also in my video I was using under 500 psi then I turned the unloaded valve down more, as I stated it was low low pressure NOT HIGH PRESSURE WASHING, and did not harm the roof, perhaps I will go back to the job as its been a year and check it out. The house backed up to a major canal connected to south Florida water management...even more reason to use water only.

I also see a lot of areas off this forum are private especially related to chemical mixing...why?

If you would like to know more about my process and equipment I would be more than happy to advise on how to build it and operate it, without any fee for my time.







-- Edited by roofcleanerspalmbeachcom on Saturday 24th of January 2015 07:34:37 PM

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roofcleanerspalmbeachcom wrote:

Chemical Roof Cleaners usually make their mix in 100 gallon batch or larger.

From reading: Per 100 gallons the are typically starting out with 60gal water 40 gal SH!. That's 40 gallons! for tough jobs some add powered bleach that is 65% strength! 40% on tile roofs 25-30% on shingles and I use an average of 40-50 gallons of the 25% mix on shingles, that's more like 12 gallons. I don't know of anyone adding powdered bleach-you are showing just how misinformed you are.
The adding a very concentrated soap to help thinker or allow the solution to stick rather than run off the roof onto the environment. Most of us, if we add anything, add 44 ounces of Dawn or Gain dish liquid. You need to use a "spell checker" are you sure your not a 12 year old??
biggrin.gif

But what happens if it rains, or the morning dew, or over time...were do these chemicals go??. This is their big problem, stopping the product hit the ground, patio, trim, furniture etc. When chlorine dries, it's not chlorine anymore, it's S = simple salt.

Readers/chemical contractors perhaps you can chime in the mixe's used. I did that.

NB: household bleach is 1%, Pool Chlorine is 10%. Chemical roof cleaning with chemicals in tanks are whole new ball game! Clearly, you just talk and do no research, just walk in by your wife's washing machine -her bleach is not 1% it's 6.25 % or at least that's what my wife's is-I actually did what you don't do-I checked, before I spoke. I have seen common household bleach run [based on the brand] anywhere from 5% to about 8% It may be whole new ball game to the uninformed, such as yourself, but some of us have done it for 20 years and more!

That's 20, 30 40 gallons of SH applied to one roof/property!. this is far too much! More of being uninformed. It's "far too much" according to you and you have shown over and over, that you know nothing about what we do and seem to know very little about what you do yourself! confuse.gif Think about all the houses down the street that back up to a lake...I would not eat those Bass for sure! Do you eat the bass with the pesticides, herbacides, fungisides, Roundup, road-gas, oil etc runoff? Or do you just fear bleach, like you drink in your city water?

Traditional pressure cleaners add chlorine through a downstream chemical injector that sucks the chlorine out of a 2.5 gal jug this is a very low amount... This should NOT be confused with tank set up chemical roof cleaning. These two applications are VERY different in strength by huge amounts! I am a pressure washing contractor too and I see again, you just talk and do no research. This downstream chemical injector puts out over 30% http://www.envirospec.com/ecatalog/Injectors.htm

Referring to chemical roof cleaning as a bit of bleach that is harmless is a gross understatement in relation to the chemicals used and their strength applications

Perhaps you can reply as to the exact strength of product you are using, as this should be disclosed to home owners, they need to know, especially since roofs cost 20k, 30k, 40-50k even more money. Yes, and you destroy them with your pressure and the environment is impacted with those asphalt / tar roofs going to the dump far sooner than would be necessary, if the homeowner had used our no pressure system.
The roof is the single biggest asset to the home, and its job is to preform 20-30 years or more. However if you are applying strong chemicals to it every 2-3 years it sure sounds like the roofing market is a good business to be in. What we do see is a lot of roofs failing in the valleys or collection areas. Cheap talk. Anyone with a brain knows that water based chlorine is not going to affect a shingle anymore than it would a plastic jug. Your pressure will quickly destroy it though.

I am surprised that your above chemical roof contractor above, does not know what will happen to his shingle test, he knows, as we all do, it will do nothing to it. He was going to do that just to help open your blind eyes a bit. yet he applies it to roofs, and I might add that he applies the chemical to metal, nails and other roof accessories while he is doing his test. How is our roof mix going to get to the nails??? They are under the sealed shingles? I've done this and pressure washing for over 20 years and have never seen any ill effect. I started pressure cleaning roofs-like you do- in 1989 and felt bad about the granules being blown off and on older roofs an occasional whole tab getting flipped up and breaking off-that's why i am so happy not to have to resort to such rough treatment of shingles, such as you are so prod to be doing. Back then, I experimented with lowering pressures and using wider fan tips. All that I learned is that the lower the pressure setting, the closer I had to put my tip to the roof surface.

Roofs can leak from rusty nails, especially in valleys, and with asphalt shingles as the nail is just under the tab, and under that...only 30lb tar paper that is a thin minimum membrane. Perhaps stick your hand in it too, or take a good wiff of it. You have to be the least educated person in the field of roof cleaning! If you see the nails, it's probably from blasting the shingles up! The nails can't be seen, not hit with this mix. My roof was put on in 1989 and I cleaned it for the 1st time in about 1995 with our soft wash system and then every 4 years after that, which equals 9 times total. This year, even though my shingled roof looked just fine and still had over 50% of it's granules, my insurance company said they would no longer insure it, - it was over it's 25 year lifespan. I just had it replaced a few weeks ago and I inspected the valleys and nails and none had any significant amount of rust, just a tiny bit here and there [ A roofer friend did my roof.] So, I KNOW what I am talking about and saw the proof!
Also it turns Roof Tile dull and brittle so the next person walking on the roof breaks a lot of them easier. As for Cedar shake it dries out the wood, sucks the natural tannins out, and the shake start curling from drying out very quickly I know nothing about cedar shakes and so, unlike you, I won't attempt to speak about them. What I do know and see all the time, are tiles with the glazing blown off from multiple pressure washings.

The homeowners themselves told me that after a pressure washing, their roof was a pale example of what it was before. Again, use your brain a minute instead of just spouting off misinformation, without benefit of research. The glazing is impervious to chlorine-but not to pressure.

I consider this type of roof cleaning nothing to do with pressure cleaning at all, yet your lic workers comp classifications are the same for very different work on a pitched surface that is very slippery. It is nothing to do with pressure cleaning, pressure cleaning roofs is far more dangerous and much more likely to land the worker on the ground. Heck, many of us clean roofs from a ladder and don't even step on them! I believe Gary W. does all of his from a ladder.

Have any of you made a workers comp claim for chemical roof cleaning under your current classification...by the time its get to pay the damage, the insurance company could have a reason 'not to payout'. believe me...I don't wish this on anybody, but it needs to be addressed for safety and also liability which would fall on the customers/homeowner behalf. You use the words "believe me" you are so full of misconceptions, and wrong ideas, I doubt anyone is just going to "believe" you? You talk like a guy who has cleaned roofs for a month!

I think chemical roof cleaning needs more guideline's from local and state, there are no regulations and kids are mixing up chemicals in their garage, storing them, driving them around in big tanks on questionable vehicles/trailers with little training on anything really...its a big worry. Did you dream this? Or do you know all these "kids" making up all these chemical mixtures? Maybe they have a forum and you could go to the "Kids Who Mix Chemicals" roof cleaning forum and warn them?Swimming pool companies & chemical companies handle the same chemicals however they are treated different ...why?, and they are not atomizing them into the atmosphere 20 feet up with wands "atomizing" ?? You are a nut job my friend!

I am sure you would not wash your vehicle with your chemical...so why a 30k roof? Is this a "how dumb can I sound" show you are putting on? What does cleaning a vehicle have to do with a roof??? Would you clean a baby's teeth with your pressure washer? DUH!

I hope you can address these issues, but I feel you cant because the chemical is SH that you use, and we all know what it does...its not bio degradable, perhaps your techy soap is that's added to it Wrong again. Read dead center in in the"item description http://www.walmart.com/ip/21633505?www=true&productRedirect=true Who is likely to be sued for misinformation? Walmart or you? Walmart no doubt made legally sure of their words, you just jabber on and on, with no proof, just "I think"

Also in my video I was using under 500 psi then I turned the unloaded valve down more, as I stated it was low low pressure NOT HIGH PRESSURE WASHING, and did not harm the roof, perhaps I will go back to the job as its been a year and check it out. The house backed up to a major canal connected to south Florida water management...even more reason to use water only. Earlier you asked why one of the RCIA posters said he was going to do a test by putting a shingle in chlorine and leaving it for a period of time. You suggested he didn't know what it would do to it. So why are you thinking of going back to "the job as it's been a year and check it out" ARE YOU UNSURE? Also, you bothered to make a video and claim now that you later turned the pressure down from 500 psi to less??? That's just dumb! I have a 16hp pressure washer with a ts2021 pump and could do that same show, with that wide fan nozzle you have, at 3000 psi and it would look exactly the same. It's just semantics: If you pressure clean a blackened shingle roof with 2000 psi, you may [for the sake of discussion-all are different] be able to hold your gun tip 16" from the roof and clean it. Now, cut the pressure to 1000psi and you have to move in to 8" to accomplish the same thing and at 500psi 4" would be the mathematical equivalent of the 2000psi at 16".

I also see a lot of areas off this forum are private especially related to chemical mixing...why? Duh, if you know they are "private" how do you also know they are "especially related to chemical mixing" Was that really you in that video? Or are you really a 12 year old? You don't even think before you write!

If you would like to know more about my process and equipment I would be more than happy to advise on how to build it and operate it, without any fee for my time. Most homeowner own toy machines like yours, if we were actually so misinformed, that we couldn't pressure clean a roof, I think we could find someone more informed than you to teach us. Now, you look foolish enough, by spouting off loads of obvious misinformation, why keep beating yourself into the ground deeper? Most of us started where you are now and have advanced to a much safer, non damaging and longer lasting method of roof cleaning and have no intention of going backwards-we will leave the backward roof cleaning all to you! Now go look at your wife's bleach and shake your head at yourself, for sounding so misinformed about it being 1% --- well, about everything!!!! HEADS UP! YOU ARE ON THE WRONG FORUM! Check out my 60psi pressure picture and how clean my roofs come using 25-30% SH, instead of the higher % available through a downstream injector!





 



-- Edited by roofcleanerspalmbeachcom on Saturday 24th of January 2015 07:34:37 PM


 



-- Edited by Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 on Saturday 24th of January 2015 09:02:29 PM



-- Edited by Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 on Saturday 24th of January 2015 09:10:51 PM



-- Edited by Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 on Sunday 25th of January 2015 10:22:09 AM

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Serving Englewood Rotonda North Port Cape Haze Venice Port Charlotte Punta Gorda Boca Grande Charlotte and Southern Sarasota Counties in Florida.

941-698-1959
www.bergmanroofcleaning.com

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNlN3R7CqI



RCIA Founder

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Date: Jan 24, 2015
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Here is some great information about how a high flow pressure washer works. Notice that the More Flow, the more IMPACT yawn In case you didn't know, it is IMPACT that knocks the granules loose yawn

 

Pressure and flow

Pressure washers use the impact of the water to break the bond of the dirt to the surface you are trying to clean; the higher the pressure, the greater the impact. The type of nozzle you use makes a huge difference in how much impact your pressure washer creates. A zero degree tip gives you the full impact of your pressure washer but is almost useless for cleaning because it hits such a small area. A 15 degree nozzle increases the area you can clean at one time, but reduces impact by 70%. A 40 degree increases the surface area cleaned further, but has 88% less impact than a zero degree nozzle. This is why a turbo nozzle is so effective; for it is a 0 degree nozzle rotating thousands of times a minute creating a 25 degree cone of full impact.

The amount of water, or flow, a pressure washer puts out makes a big difference in cleaning. The flow is what carries the impact to the surface. The more flow, the more impact; there is a direct relationship. A 13 HP pressure washer putting out 4000 PSI at 3.5 gallons a minutes flow has one third less impact than a 20 HP unit putting out 3,500 PSI at 5.0 gallons per minute. Moreover, flow is what is needed for effective rinsing. This is especially true when cleaning large open surfaces, like driveways; or quickly rinsing vehicles in truck washing operation.

Cleaning units

A pressure washer pump creates a positive water flow, and by restricting that flow at the nozzle creates pressure. The more horse power driving the pump allows more flow to be pushed through the pump and the more pressure to be created at the nozzle. 



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Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa Florida

711 Westbrook

Brandon, FL 33511

813 655 8777

See our website here 

Click here for more information

Here are more of our services

Watch a short video

 




 



Premium Member Roof Cleaning Institute Of America

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Date: Jan 24, 2015
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As we use to say in Brooklyn...not for nothing but this guy is wasting everybody's time.

Hank

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Serving the Pocono and Lehigh Valley(Carbon, Lehigh, Northampton, Monroe, Pike and Wayne Counties), PA community as well as both Warren and Sussex Counties of New Jersey



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roofcleanerspalmbeachcom wrote:

Chemical Roof Cleaners usually make their mix in 100 gallon batch or larger.  No, not really.  I can see you found a mixing chart that was based off of a 100 gallon chart, didn't you?  The 100 gallon chart is so the numbers work out easily for mixing whatever you need.  If you were looking at a 65 gallon chart, mixing wouldn't be as quick and simple mathematically, thus the 100 gallon chart. 

From reading: Per 100 gallons the are typically starting out with 60gal water 40 gal SH!. That's 40 gallons! for tough jobs some add powered bleach that is 65% strength!  Umm, never seen 65% liquid bleach.  Probably 99% of the people cleaning roofs with SH use 12.5 % SH and then dilute it with water.  I'd like to find 65% SH...you could do a lot more jobs  between refilling your SH tank.
The adding a very concentrated soap to help thinker or allow the solution to stick rather than run off the roof onto the environment. But what happens if it rains, or the morning dew, or over time...were do these chemicals go??. This is their big problem, stopping the product hit the ground, patio, trim, furniture etc.  If you just mixed water and SH it would run off the roof before it had a chance to do its job.  The surfactants thicken the mix so it clings in place versus just running off the roof.  If you're really interested in how we do things, ask, don't be passive aggressive.

Readers/chemical contractors perhaps you can chime in the mixe's used.

NB: household bleach is 1%, Pool Chlorine is 10%. Chemical roof cleaning with chemicals in tanks are whole new ball game!  Normal household bleach is not 1%, it is 5.25%, 6% and 8.25%.  If you go looking for higher strength bleach you can find it from ~10 to 15% strength, but as stated above, the majority is 12.5 %.  If you're going to be spouting off information, please at least take the time to research the information you are posting.  If you don't know what you're talking about, it just makes your position that much weaker spouting off incorrect information on a forum where people know.

 That's 20, 30 40 gallons of SH applied to one roof/property!. this is far too much! Think about all the houses down the street that back up to a lake...I would not eat those Bass for sure!  Wow, more misinformation.  Go read up on how bleach works.  Oh, here is the information Mr. Bergman wanted you to read, copied directly from a bleach website - "S H and S hydroxide. Environmental Commitment: The surfactants in this product are biodegradable. The bleach in this product rapidly breaks down almost entirely to salt water. Contains no phosphorus."

Perhaps you can reply as to the exact strength of product you are using, as this should be disclosed to home owners, they need to know, especially since roofs cost 20k, 30k, 40-50k even more money.
The roof is the single biggest asset to the home, and its job is to preform 20-30 years or more. However if you are applying strong chemicals to it every 2-3 years it sure sounds like the roofing market is a good business to be in. What we do see is a lot of roofs failing in the valleys or collection areas.  You may need to do some more research again.  I hang out on the SoftWash Systems forums mostly and pretty much all those guys give a 5 year warranty on their roof cleaning.  Sorry, I asked you this before and you evaded my question...do you do yearly follow ups?  I have a friend in Portland that has been having his roof pressure washed twice a year because the stains keep coming back with pressure washing.  I introduced him to a bleach based roof cleaner in the area and he will do the job and give him a 5 year warranty.  Can your method give that kind of warranty?

I am surprised that your above chemical roof contractor above, does not know what will happen to his shingle test, yet he applies it to roofs, and I might add that he applies the chemical to metal, nails and other roof accessories while he is doing his test.  Wow, nice way to try and twist my words there Chris.  What respect I had for you is quickly dropping.  I know what will happen to a shingle on a roof cleaning...as always, NOTHING...on a roof cleaning about 95-98% of the SH is inert by the time the cleaner pulls out of the driveway.  Did you know that?  Let me give you a little lesson on bleach.  NaOCl, that is the chemical makeup of bleach.  Na=S=salt, O=Oxygen, Cl=Chlorine.  Want to know how to make bleach?  Take water, mix in some salt, and put an electrical charge across it.  You'll see the mixture start to bubble.  The bubbles is the hydrogen gas escaping as it breaks from the oxygen it is bonded with in the water (H2O...notice the H is missing in the NaOCL formula?)  Granted you'd probably only get <0.5% strength SH like this, but you get the idea.  Now, back to where you were twisting my words...I know cleaning a roof with SH will not harm the roof or nails or anything else you mentioned because bleach is rendered inert quickly after it is applied.  I was going to put the shingle in the bleach for a week at the full 1 gallon strength even, not the  diluted mix we use on various surfaces.  I didn't get to do this today because the weather was a bit nasty, but tomorrow (ok, today, Sunday) will be a brighter day hopefully. 

Roofs can leak from rusty nails, especially in valleys, and with asphalt shingles as the nail is just under the tab, and under that...only 30lb tar paper that is a thin minimum membrane. Perhaps stick your hand in it too, or take a good wiff of it.
Also it turns Roof Tile dull and brittle so the next person walking on the roof breaks a lot of them easier. As for Cedar shake it dries out the wood, sucks the natural tannins out, and the shake start curling from drying out very quickly

I consider this type of roof cleaning nothing to do with pressure cleaning at all, yet your lic workers comp classifications are the same for very different work on a pitched surface that is very slippery.   cause and effect.  A pressure washer is similar to a gun, and when you pull the trigger you have water spraying out with force from your wand, and you have an equal and opposite reaction pushing back on the wand every time you pull the trigger.  I've seen tons of information advising people not to pressure wash off of a ladder because the pressure recoil has caused so many people that are pressure washing to be pushed backwards enough to lose their balance and fall off of ladders.  That same principle applies to being on a sloped roof with a pressure washer.  SoftWashing is just that, soft...~60 PSI is about the exact same kick as spraying a garden hose, which is pretty minimal, and much safer.

Have any of you made a workers comp claim for chemical roof cleaning under your current classification...by the time its get to pay the damage, the insurance company could have a reason 'not to payout'. believe me...I don't wish this on anybody, but it needs to be addressed for safety and also liability which would fall on the customers/homeowner behalf.  Nope, not a single issue, and I pray to God there never is, for any of us.


I think chemical roof cleaning needs more guideline's from local and state, there are no regulations and kids are mixing up chemicals in their garage, storing them, driving them around in big tanks on questionable vehicles/trailers with little training on anything really...its a big worry. There are plenty of guidelines from multiple agencies Chris...again, go do your research.  Swimming pool companies & chemical companies handle the same chemicals however they are treated different ...why?, and they are not atomizing them into the atmosphere 20 feet up with wands Again, go do your research.  We're not atomizing (go find a dictionary and look it up), we spray pretty much like a flat spray on a water hose garden nozzle, which is far from atomizing.  Why do you keep trying to spew out fear tactics against bleach.   Speak out honestly against bleach however you want, but don't try to make it dramatic by using incorrect terms. 

I am sure you would not wash your vehicle with your chemical...so why a 30k roof?  I would wash my vehicle with a bleach solution if my vehicle was covered in the same organisms that cause a roof stain.  People do have metal roofs, they do get stains as well, and they do get chemically treated without harm. 

I hope you can address these issues (addressed already, by multiple people), but I feel you cant (but you're wrong)  because the chemical is SH that you use, and we all know what it does...its not bio degradable, perhaps your techy soap is that's added to it - Again, directly from the bleach website that Mr. Bergman linked above - S H and S Hydroxide. Environmental Commitment: The surfactants in this product are biodegradable. The bleach in this product rapidly breaks down almost entirely to salt water. Contains no phosphorus.

Also in my video I was using under 500 psi then I turned the unloaded valve down more, as I stated it was low low pressure NOT HIGH PRESSURE WASHING, and did not harm the roof, perhaps I will go back to the job as its been a year and check it out. The house backed up to a major canal connected to south Florida water management...even more reason to use water only.

I also see a lot of areas off this forum are private especially related to chemical mixing...why?  Most professional forums have a public side where guests are welcome to participate, and a private section for the members to discuss whatever they want to discuss.  Why are you making it seem like a bad thing here when it is an extremely common occurrence on forums?  Do you not visit professional washing forums and just not know any better, or are you just trying to make it sound like a shady practice?  Quit with the drama.

If you would like to know more about my process and equipment I would be more than happy to advise on how to build it and operate it, without any fee for my time.  I was tempted to say yes and ask for everything, but I realized I'd be wasting my time.  Again, as stated previously in these forums and links to the ARMA website, pressure washing is strongly discouraged and can harm roofs and cause homeowners to lose their roofing manufacturers warranty, and again, bleach is what the roofing manufactures and the ARMA suggest (the ONLY thing they suggest), not high pressure water, so no, I'll save you the time and pass on that offer.  I don't want to harm customers roofs so I'll stick with what the ARMA and roofing manufacturers suggest, bleach, not high pressure water.  I don't want to prematurely age and damage my customers roofs using high pressure water.  There's a reason I've never had a claim against my insurance, I don't use practices that damage customers' roofs.

And you do seem like a friendly bloke, so hopefully the next video you post will include some PPE. 


 



-- Edited by Troy Layman on Sunday 25th of January 2015 01:18:20 PM

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waxman18324 wrote:

As we use to say in Brooklyn...not for nothing but this guy is wasting everybody's time.

Hank


You are right Hank! It's just my nature to get stirred up when people spout off untruths and come to the most knowledgeable roof cleaning site in the world and instead of learning something, have the nerve to show up as a guest, yet not conduct themselves as guests at all. no.gif



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Troy Layman wrote:
roofcleanerspalmbeachcom wrote:

Chemical Roof Cleaners usually make their mix in 100 gallon batch or larger.  No, not really.  I can see you found a mixing chart that was based off of a 100 gallon chart, didn't you?  The 100 gallon chart is so the numbers work out easily for mixing whatever you need.  If you were looking at a 65 gallon chart, mixing wouldn't be as quick and simple mathematically. 

From reading: Per 100 gallons the are typically starting out with 60gal water 40 gal SH!. That's 40 gallons! for tough jobs some add powered bleach that is 65% strength!  Umm, never seen 65% liquid bleach.  Probably 99% of the people cleaning roofs with SH use 12.5 % SH and then dilute it with water.  I'd like to find 65% SH...you could do a lot more jobs  between refilling your SH tank.
The adding a very concentrated soap to help thinker or allow the solution to stick rather than run off the roof onto the environment. But what happens if it rains, or the morning dew, or over time...were do these chemicals go??. This is their big problem, stopping the product hit the ground, patio, trim, furniture etc.  If you just mixed water and SH it would run off the roof before it had a chance to do its job.  The surfactants thicken the mix so it clings in place versus just running off the roof.  If you're really interested in how we do things, ask, don't be passive aggressive.

Readers/chemical contractors perhaps you can chime in the mixe's used.

NB: household bleach is 1%, Pool Chlorine is 10%. Chemical roof cleaning with chemicals in tanks are whole new ball game!  Normal household bleach is not 1%, it is 5.25%, 6% and 8.25%.  If you go looking for higher strength bleach you can find it from ~10 to 15% strength, but as stated above, the majority is 1 gallon If you're going to be spouting off information, please at least take the time to research the information you are posting.  If you don't know what you're talking about, it just makes your position that much weaker spouting off incorrect information on a forum where people know.

 That's 20, 30 40 gallons of SH applied to one roof/property!. this is far too much! Think about all the houses down the street that back up to a lake...I would not eat those Bass for sure!  Wow, more misinformation.  Go read up on how bleach works.  Oh, here is the information Mr. Bergman wanted you to read, copied directly from a bleach website - "S H and S hydroxide. Environmental Commitment: The surfactants in this product are biodegradable. The bleach in this product rapidly breaks down almost entirely to salt water. Contains no phosphorus."

Perhaps you can reply as to the exact strength of product you are using, as this should be disclosed to home owners, they need to know, especially since roofs cost 20k, 30k, 40-50k even more money.
The roof is the single biggest asset to the home, and its job is to preform 20-30 years or more. However if you are applying strong chemicals to it every 2-3 years it sure sounds like the roofing market is a good business to be in. What we do see is a lot of roofs failing in the valleys or collection areas.  You may need to do some more research again.  I hang out on the SoftWash Systems forums mostly and pretty much all those guys give a 5 year warranty on their roof cleaning.  Sorry, I asked you this before and you evaded my question...do you do yearly follow ups?  I have a friend in Portland that has been having his roof pressure washed twice a year because the stains keep coming back with pressure washing.  I introduced him to a bleach based roof cleaner in the area and he will do the job and give him a 5 year warranty.  Can your method give that kind of warranty?

I am surprised that your above chemical roof contractor above, does not know what will happen to his shingle test, yet he applies it to roofs, and I might add that he applies the chemical to metal, nails and other roof accessories while he is doing his test.  Wow, nice way to try and twist my words there Chris.  What respect I had for you is quickly dropping.  I know what will happen to a shingle on a roof cleaning...as always, NOTHING...on a roof cleaning about 95-98% of the SH is inert by the time the cleaner pulls out of the driveway.  Did you know that?  Let me give you a little lesson on bleach.  NaOCl, that is the chemical makeup of bleach.  Na=S=salt, O=Oxygen, Cl=Chlorine.  Want to know how to make bleach?  Take water, mix in some salt, and put an electrical charge across it.  You'll see the mixture start to bubble.  The bubbles is the hydrogen escaping as it breaks from the oxygen in the water (H2O...notice the H is missing in the NaOCL formula?)  Granted you'd probably only get <0.5% strength SH like this, but you get the idea.  Now, back to where you were twisting my words...I know cleaning a roof with SH will not harm the roof or nails or anything else you mentioned because bleach is rendered inert quickly after it is applied.  I was going to put the shingle in the bleach for a week at the full 1 gallon strength even, not the  diluted mix we use on various surfaces.  I didn't get to do this today because the weather was a bit nasty, but tomorrow (ok, today, Sunday) will be a brighter day hopefully. 

Roofs can leak from rusty nails, especially in valleys, and with asphalt shingles as the nail is just under the tab, and under that...only 30lb tar paper that is a thin minimum membrane. Perhaps stick your hand in it too, or take a good wiff of it.
Also it turns Roof Tile dull and brittle so the next person walking on the roof breaks a lot of them easier. As for Cedar shake it dries out the wood, sucks the natural tannins out, and the shake start curling from drying out very quickly

I consider this type of roof cleaning nothing to do with pressure cleaning at all, yet your lic workers comp classifications are the same for very different work on a pitched surface that is very slippery.   cause and effect.  A pressure washer is similar to a gun, and when you pull the trigger you have water spraying out with force from your wand, and you have an equal and opposite reaction pushing back on the wand every time you pull the trigger.  I've seen tons of information advising people not to pressure wash off of a ladder because the pressure recoil has caused so many people that are pressure washing to be pushed backwards enough to lose their balance and fall off of ladders.  That same principle applies to being on a sloped roof with a pressure washer.  SoftWashing is just that, soft...~60 PSI is about the exact same kick as spraying a garden hose, which is pretty minimal, and much safer.

Have any of you made a workers comp claim for chemical roof cleaning under your current classification...by the time its get to pay the damage, the insurance company could have a reason 'not to payout'. believe me...I don't wish this on anybody, but it needs to be addressed for safety and also liability which would fall on the customers/homeowner behalf.  Nope, not a single issue, and I pray to God there never is, for any of us.


I think chemical roof cleaning needs more guideline's from local and state, there are no regulations and kids are mixing up chemicals in their garage, storing them, driving them around in big tanks on questionable vehicles/trailers with little training on anything really...its a big worry. There are plenty of guidelines from multiple agencies Chris...again, go do your research.  Swimming pool companies & chemical companies handle the same chemicals however they are treated different ...why?, and they are not atomizing them into the atmosphere 20 feet up with wands Again, go do your research.  We're not atomizing (go find a dictionary and look it up), we spray pretty much like a flat spray on a water hose garden nozzle, which is far from atomizing.  Why do you keep trying to spew out fear tactics against bleach.   Speak out honestly against bleach however you want, but don't try to make it dramatic by using incorrect terms. 

I am sure you would not wash your vehicle with your chemical...so why a 30k roof?  I would wash my vehicle with a bleach solution if my vehicle was covered in the same organisms that cause a roof stain.  People do have metal roofs, they do get stains as well, and they do get chemically treated without harm. 

I hope you can address these issues (addressed already, by multiple people), but I feel you cant (but you're wrong)  because the chemical is SH that you use, and we all know what it does...its not bio degradable, perhaps your techy soap is that's added to it - Again, directly from the bleach website that Mr. Bergman linked above - S H and SS hydroxide. Environmental Commitment: The surfactants in this product are biodegradable. The bleach in this product rapidly breaks down almost entirely to salt water. Contains no phosphorus.

Also in my video I was using under 500 psi then I turned the unloaded valve down more, as I stated it was low low pressure NOT HIGH PRESSURE WASHING, and did not harm the roof, perhaps I will go back to the job as its been a year and check it out. The house backed up to a major canal connected to south Florida water management...even more reason to use water only.

I also see a lot of areas off this forum are private especially related to chemical mixing...why?  Most professional forums have a public side where guests are welcome to participate, and a private section for the members to discuss whatever they want to discuss.  Why are you making it seem like a bad thing here when it is an extremely common occurrence on forums?  Do you not visit professional washing forums and just not know any better, or are you just trying to make it sound like a shady practice?  Quite the drama already.

If you would like to know more about my process and equipment I would be more than happy to advise on how to build it and operate it, without any fee for my time.  I was tempted to say yes and ask for everything, but I realized I'd be wasting my time.  Again, as stated previously in these forums and links to the ARMA website, pressure washing is strongly discouraged and can harm roofs and cause homeowners to lose their roofing manufacturers warranty, and again, bleach is what the roofing manufactures and the ARMA suggest, not high pressure water, so no, I'll save you the time and pass on that offer.  I don't want to harm customers roofs so I'll stick with what the ARMA and roofing manufacturers suggest, bleach, not high pressure water.  I don't want to prematurely age and damage my customers roofs using high pressure water.

And you do seem like a friendly bloke, so hopefully the next video you post will include some PPE. 


 

Excellent points Troy! Here at the RCIA, we use facts, not just talk or "I THINK" I kinda feel bad to speak with such anger to this "Guest" but he came here looking for trouble, not help, facts or answers to legitimate questions, so he got me going!

-- Edited by Troy Layman on Sunday 25th of January 2015 06:11:30 AM



-- Edited by Troy Layman on Sunday 25th of January 2015 06:14:47 AM


 



-- Edited by Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 on Sunday 25th of January 2015 10:32:49 AM

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 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNlN3R7CqI



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Well said Chuck www.bergmanroofcleaning.com , Chris www.saferoofcleaning.com , Hank www.poconoroofclean.com and Troy.

What a wack job, LOL!

 



-- Edited by Roof Cleaning Pro Greensboro NC (336)362 7659 on Monday 26th of January 2015 11:57:23 AM

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Bergman Roof Cleaning Port Charlotte FL 941-698-1959 wrote:

Excellent points Troy! Here at the RCIA, we use facts, not just talk or "I THINK" I kinda feel bad to speak with such anger to this "Guest" but he came here looking for trouble, not help, facts or answers to legitimate questions, so he got me going!

 


 

Thanks!  I do my best not to resort to angry answers because I don't want to get into a mud slinging contest, but if not angry, I'd say annoyed? :0)  It really does make me angry though when people use fear based tactics versus legitimate reasoning with factual evidence to back it up to push customers into a sale.  I abhor dishonesty.  I'm not saying this guest is a liar, but I'd say he is spouting off information without doing research to see if there is official documentation backing it up.  His "I think" is just a weak legal loophole if anybody wanted to take him to court so he could say "See, I said I only 'thought' this was the right way, I never said it was researched and factual.  It was only my opinion..."  His "I think" just weakens his argument in my eyes.  The thing is, if anybody were to take a copy of his video he does say things in there that could probably leave him legally liable, such as around the 20 second mark where he says the ARMA approves high pressure washing methods on roofs, but he can't post a link to an ARMA website saying this because it just isn't true.  If it is true I've been unable to find it anywhere, but since he won't post this link, I have to maintain my original opinion that he's again speaking without fact and falsely misleading customers.  He says he has been cleaning roofs for 24 years but his website looks like it was made up in a day and there is no gallery of before/after pictures or photo's with a date on them dating back to when he started.  Did he clean his first roof 24 years ago and just start trying to do this professionally a few weeks ago and using that first cleaning as another loophole?  Heck, if I did that I could add almost a decade to my time when I started cleaning roofs from my first actual cleaning to my first professional cleaning.  He said earlier that he has driven 1.2 million miles for business, but I have to question that too.  My dad was a professional trucker and the 1 million mile safe driving award was given after 10 years of safe driving and my dad had a couple of them back to back.  If it took 10 years for my dad doing nothing but driving 40+ hours a week to reach 1 million miles, how does he reach 1.2 million in 24 years?  He is spending half his day or better driving so either he has few people as customers that live far away or several customers not too far away, and he is only on a roof for 30 minutes or less for a cleaning...and he dares to call us "splash and dash" operators?  Now did I catch him in a lie, or did he just say he did 24 years of cleaning and guesstimate he drove 500,000 miles each year, or did he again not take the time to do the research before posting?  The more he posts, the more items I see that are questionable, unsearched or just "I think" LOL



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Great answer Troy.

Current 2014 shingle manufacturer technical bulletins.

http://www.gaf.com/Warranties_Technical_Documents/Steep_Slope_Technical_Advisory_Bulletins/English_Bulletins/Algae_Staining_On_Shingled_Roof_Surfaces_Steep_Slope_Technical_Point_TAB_R_2011_102.pdf

http://www.asphaltroofing.org/algae-discoloration-roofs


Using 500psi and the unloader turned down is not soft washing. Calling it low, low, low pressure is still power washing, not recommended by the shingle manufacturers.

We use no pressure at all and chemicals recommended by the shingle manufacturers and prove it with these documents.

Algae Discoloration of Roofs - ARMA Technical Bulletin.jpg



-- Edited by Roof Cleaning Pro Greensboro NC (336)362 7659 on Monday 26th of January 2015 07:11:07 AM

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Roof Cleaning Pro Greensboro NC (336)362 7659 wrote:

Great answer Troy.

Current 2014 shingle manufacturer technical bulletins.

http://www.gaf.com/Warranties_Technical_Documents/Steep_Slope_Technical_Advisory

_Bulletins/English_Bulletins/Algae_Staining_On_Shingled_Roof_Surfaces_Steep_Slope_Technical_Point_TAB_R_2011_102.pdf

http://www.asphaltroofing.org/algae-discoloration-roofs


Using 500psi and the unloader turned down is not soft washing. Calling it low, low, low pressure is still power washing, not recommended by the shingle manufacturers.

We use no pressure at all and chemicals recommended by the shingle manufacturers and prove it with these documents.

Algae Discoloration of Roofs - ARMA Technical Bulletin.jpg


Thanks gentlemen, I appreciate the compliments...(and look, no high pressure water)

I had a couple of other remarks but they were less professional than I wanted to post so I removed them.  I'm trying to not let myself get pulled down to a mudslinging level, although it is tempting, even after he twisted my words.



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Wow. How many combined man-hours have been spent on this thread...LOL?

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I will reply...again...I was not using high pressure...I was using low low pressure,  cleaning with water only...NO CHEMICALS

So what is high pressure cleaning...usually 2000, 3000, 4000 psi. from a portable pressure cleaner that is designed for cement and harder surfaces.

I was using under 500 psi, then turned the unloader valve (regulates pressure) down a half turn again as the water volume was doing a incredible job, so lower psi is even better,  as you can see via my video. Then I had the spray fan a foot away from the Roof. The low pressure was what was in the hose as per my pressure gague at the head of the pump, also by the time its gets through 150 foot of hose its lower again... so out of the hose/gun, through the tip and then another foot away from the roof you can diminish the psi by more than half that again!...probably more. Its was all water volume and a lot of water I might say to clean the roof like new, rather than turn it another color and leave the debri there. turn this water volume was 30hp via a tak water system as we know my water supply was not from a spigot

I was pumping 12 gallons a minute with a very sharp flat spray pattern tip,  custom made by spraying systems , a tip that perhaps you have never used before, or a rig like mine that was pumping it either, actually it was custom built...so you cant comment on my system at all.

Your comments are just speculation on what you think, and its obvious you want to try and prove my system is high pressure doing roof damage...well its not. Got it ???

Its clearly visible I can spray my body, legs, hand to prove how GENTLE the water is...AGAIN LOW LOW PRESSURE NOT HIGH PRESSURE...GOT IT???

Perhaps another video is in order to show you close up at the spray tip / roof surface, and then the gutter collection area below.

I am correct, no granules were blown/scared off the roof,  this system is superior to Chemicals for sure...you just dont want to believe this...I cant help stubbornness that you dont want to think that you can clean a roof without chemicals.

As for tile roofs and cedar shake, metal etc you obviously have no argument at all and that's 75% of other roofs out there that don't need to be shot with chemicals for no reason at all other than you don't want to work harder on the roof, get wet and clean the debri off the roof gutters etc.

Again No granules were removed...this is far superior to applying corrosive S Hydroxide and Chlorine TSP gain soaps etc...soon you will look like pest control applicators with red skin and rashes. What does your wife say to you??? what about the soil/plants/animals/eco-system?...you don't care obviously. The shear gallon's of chemicals per roof you are applying are excessive at best. People don't want that..they tell me

Go tell the home owner whats in your tank, the chemicals and its strength before you apply...watch them slam the door. You are not being up front on the  concentrations of your chemicals, Home owners have a right to know. Home owners have a right to know long term effects of roofs, however you don't have this data, or care to test, long as the roof looks clean and you get paid...NEXT Roof right?

You do you way I will do mine,  in 15-20 years your roof will be gone...from corrosive roof failure, because you can't expect to keep dousing the roof over and over again with Chem and expect to extend the service life..if so enjoy the Kool Aide!



-- Edited by roofcleanerspalmbeachcom on Monday 26th of January 2015 05:13:45 PM

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There are websites dedicated to pressure washing that may find what you are doing interesting.
We like what we do and you are simply in the wrong ballpark.
I have lost interest in this, it's silly, you are still pressure washing roofs and doing so with extreme volumes of water, which spells GRANULE LOSS just like high pressure does. Like I said, I started my business here in SW Florida in 1989 and tried all pressures and all water flows and if the roof has any age to it at all, there will be granule loss and I'm sure you know that. You say confuse.gif there is no granule loss, we know better. Try some of the pressure washing sites, you may interest someone in your method??? That's not gonna happen here. We are too well informed.

I'm the hothead around here, so if I'm done with this silliness, I doubt you will get much feedback after this.
Have a good life! wink.gif



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